Tourney How would you rule this?

Frogzilla

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I'm going to say award the pot to player A just to create some controversy.
Or this related question. What if Player B had done this maneuver at showdown: picks up his cards, quickly show/flash them to the table, but then discard them face down into the muck. Never tabling them face up. Do his cards still speak?
 

inca911

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What if Player B had done this maneuver at showdown: picks up his cards, quickly show/flash them to the table, but then discard them face down into the muck. Never tabling them face up. Do his cards still speak?
Nope, and no player should provide verbal comments on any hand that isn't laying flat on the table. I don't have many pet peeves, but someone leaning over and commenting on another player's cards that are still in hand is definitely one of them!
 

Jeevansluck

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Ughhhhhhh
So much amazing information and experience in this thread speaking.

I love to listen. I'm an anxious but nervous host. Want to be ready for at least some of the situations that WILL surely arise in the first Tourney game next week that is a full table.

I'm soaking up the info in these threads to lay the foundation for my own home games!
 

Gobbs

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I’m just going to throw these two things out there and watch for a while.

When is a hand considered “tabled”?

There is a difference between “discarding”, “folding”, and “mucking”. Distinguishing between the three can be very important and, as @BGinGA stated, many sources, including the TDA, incorrectly fail to distinguish between them.
 

CdnBeerLover

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Or this related question. What if Player B had done this maneuver at showdown: picks up his cards, quickly show/flash them to the table, but then discard them face down into the muck. Never tabling them face up. Do his cards still speak?

We folow PokerTDA .

Rule 13
13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand
A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7 cards in 7-stud, etc.
B: At showdown players must protect their hands while waiting for cards to be read (See also Rule 65). Players who don’t fully table all cards, then muck thinking they’ve won, do so at their own risk. If a hand is not 100% retrievable and identifiable and the TD rules it was not clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.
C: Dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.
Rule 14

14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

My thought if I'm TD
If you "quickly flash to the table", I think the dealer should table them to ensure everyone sees them before they go into the muck. At that point, they are tabled (PokerTDA, rule 13a).

If the player (not the dealer) pushes them into the muck and they are not identifiable, they are dead (rule 14, 'otherwise irretrievable...')
 

Gobbs

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If the player (not the dealer) pushes them into the muck and they are not identifiable, they are dead (rule 14, 'otherwise irretrievable...')
If the player can push cards into the muck, fire the dealer. If it’s a self-dealt game, remind players that when they are dealing, they need to protect the muck.
 

Frogzilla

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If the player can push cards into the muck, fire the dealer. If it’s a self-dealt game, remind players that when they are dealing, they need to protect the muck.
Wait what? It’s really easy to toss cards to the middle of the table. I’ve never seen a dealer ever call a player out for folding that way, as long as the cards don’t flash.
 

BGinGA

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Muck pile should never be in the middle of the table, and it's perfectly fine for a player to "toss cards to the middle of the table.... folding". The muck pile is typically kept very close to the dealer, and usually guarded by dealer's hand (either free hand or deck stub hand) when dealer is in resting position.
 

JustinInMN

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I fold toward the muck pile all time time. Dealers (especially the short armed ones) prefer it.

Dealers should protect the muck, but the muck doesn't need to be protected from cards going in, just from flashing cards, or worst case unruly players that would reach for it
 

BGinGA

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I fold toward the muck pile all time time. Dealers (especially the short armed ones) prefer it.
Big difference in folding/discarding *towards* the muck pile, vs folding/discarding *into* the muck pile.

Too many ways to create problems and/or angleshoot with the latter.
 

BGinGA

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Instances of where the rules require that the player show his hand, but he throws it in the muck to avoid doing so. If he merely folds/discards, the dealer can still accurately table his hand, or return his cards to have the player table them.

Another is when collusion is suspected, and a player tries to muck his hand to avoid it being revealed.
 

JustinInMN

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I guess those are fair. The first being the case when the tournament rule is in place that all in hands are always shown.

At the risk of another thread jack, I hate the tabling for collusion rule and it has been abused far more than it has actually prevented any collusion.
 
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