Tourney How would you rule this?

JStew

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Background: Monthly NLHE home game tourney; usually two tables; low stakes ($30 buy-in with no rebuys); great group of guys; mixed skill level; rules are written down and distributed to players at the beginning of each season; Rules state cards call themselves (ie. if you flip your cards over you win if you have the best hand even if you don’t realize you have the best hand).

Situation: Full table; two players see the flop; bets proceed on flop, turn, and river. Pot is pretty big with both players putting around 1/2 of their stack in the pot. After river bets, Player A turns over two pair. Player B turns over his cards on the table with disgust and says “take it down”. Almost immediately (1 or 2 seconds max) the table identifies that player B has a straight and should win the pot. If player B would have just flipped over his cards and not said anything then clearly per the house written rules he would have won the pot. Question is since he said “take it down” does this verbal action take precedence over the written rule. Note: Player A did NOT have time to start raking the pot.
 

Lancew09

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If the cards are shown and are not mucked, then the cards will play as they are. I'm a host and that is how I would rule the hand - Player A is lucky he didn't loose anymore $$$$.
 

Highli99

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Best hand wins. The person doesn’t have to realize, they just have to show. Are we certain it wasn’t a slow roll? :whistle: :whistling: ;) :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:

I often table my hand without declaring.

BTW a few games ago I ran a PERFECT bluff against a good friend who is a long time player of low skill. He called, declaring “I have a straight so I have to call but you probably have a flush”. He flipped his cards over leading me to declare the following: “well, you don’t have a straight but mid pair is good”.

Then I drank a lot to punish myself.
 

1A25R

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Why do you ask as it's written down in your rules? Follow your own write rules:
"Rules state cards call themselves "
Pot goes to Player B as cards speak and that also applies even if player B by mistake said "I have Ace high" or "I have quads" (showing both cards).

In my home rules I added two lines regarding the dealer duties, and one of them is "help active players to read their hand at showdown"
 

k9dr

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JStew

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Thanks for all the feedback. Glad to see it is unanimous. As host, I ruled with the consensus here that pot should be awarded to player B. Everyone at the table including player A agreed with no controversy. It just seemed weird to me since player B conceded the pot verbally but I agree with the points made in this post that that the written rule around cards speaking for themselves trumps the verbal.
 

Shaggy

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Thanks for all the feedback. Glad to see it is unanimous. As host, I ruled with the consensus here that pot should be awarded to player B. Everyone at the table including player A agreed with no controversy. It just seemed weird to me since player B conceded the pot verbally but I agree with the points made in this post that that the written rule around cards speaking for themselves trumps the verbal.

Think about it this way... giving the pot to B is for the good of the game. He in fact had the best hand... even though he didn't know it. If anyone protests, be stern... this is how it is. Perhaps later, take the protester aside and explain that giving this one pot to player B is not giving this player an advantage. If he didn't know that he had the winning hand in this situation, imagine all the other mistakes he is making.
 

JustinInMN

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I agree with everyone B wins if he has legitimately tabled his hand.

If B said "I fold" as he turned his cards over, A would win, but outside of that, B wins the pot.

I think B still wins even in these cases. If B has called all bets the hand is officially at showdown, meaning "fold" is not a valid action verbal or otherwise.

At showdown only tabling and mucking (not synonymous with fold) are valid, and "cards speak" to me means verbal declarations generally do not matter the same way they do in betting rounds.

Now that said here is one situation where A could win... if B never fully tables. Tabling means the backs of the cards rest on the table. If he just shows his cards face up without releasing and then throws them in the muck, that's a muck.
 

BGinGA

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I agree with everyone B wins if he has legitimately tabled his hand.



I think B still wins even in these cases. If B has called all bets the hand is officially at showdown, meaning "fold" is not a valid action verbal or otherwise.

At showdown only tabling and mucking (not synonymous with fold) are valid, and "cards speak" to me means verbal declarations generally do not matter the same way they do in betting rounds.

Now that said here is one situation where A could win... if B never fully tables. Tabling means the backs of the cards rest on the table. If he just shows his cards face up without releasing and then throws them in the muck, that's a muck.
Pretty much agree with the premise of your post, but not all of your terminology usage.

Players can fold or discard a hand, but only a dealer can muck a hand.

If a player is at showdown but is not required to table/show his hand, he can certainly fold it, and afaik a verbal declaration of 'fold' would still be binding. Discarding his hand in the direction of the muck pile is also a fold (not a muck; that happens wnen the dealer adds it to the muck pile).

Consider the case where he discards face down (or even face-up) towards the muck pile (a physical 'fold') while announcing his cards (thinking he lost). Another player says, "no, that's a winning straight". If his discard action is not considered a fold (it is), then the cards would be live, retrievable, and the winning hand.

Tabling his hand at showdown invokes the 'cards speak' rule, which trumps verbal action in error.
 

Mr Winberg

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Consider the case where he discards face down (or even face-up) towards the muck pile (a physical 'fold') while announcing his cards (thinking he lost). Another player says, "no, that's a winning straight". If his discard action is not considered a fold (it is), then the cards would be live, retrievable, and the winning hand.

I'm not sure I got this, can you please set me straight? Let's say river goes check-check with B in position. Player A tables two pair, B says "Gosh darn it, you rivered med again you clueless donkey" and discards a straight face-up towards the muck pile (a physical 'fold', as you wrote). Is that a fold, or does the initial check count as B's action and B wins?

If B wins in my example, please give an example where all bets are called yet B looses a face-up winning hand. Thanks!
 

JustinInMN

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If a player is at showdown but is not required to table/show his hand, he can certainly fold it, and afaik a verbal declaration of 'fold' would still be binding.

I understand your uses of the terminology if you want to reserve the word "muck" for the dealer, but it is impossible to call all bets and then fold for the same reason one cannot raise after calling. They are contradictory actions.

In fairness, I believe this is the pertinent text in Robert's under "Showdown".

1. A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot.

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared.

4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.

There is no mentions of verbal declarations altering these points in the rules. In fairness my definition of "tabled" isn't there either, but that's what I have heard pretty consistently from floorpersons over several years.
 

WedgeRock

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I recall a WSOP ruling a few years back where heads up at showdown, Player 1 tabled his cards and Player 2 tossed his hand into the muck. The dealer retrieved the hand and exposed it and Player 2 was awarded the pot with the better hand. The floor ruling was that heads up, you cannot fold your hand and must table it, presumably to prevent collusion/chip dumping.

Edit: As I recall, one or both of the players were all in at showdown. The floor ruled that the hand could not be folded when all in at showdown.
 
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JustinInMN

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There is no mentions of verbal declarations altering these points in the rules. In fairness my definition of "tabled" isn't there either, but that's what I have heard pretty consistently from floorpersons over several years.

I should say the part of point 2 I omitted does refer to a situation of deliberately misdeclaring the contents of a hand.

However that is different to me than saying there are verbal declarations for showdown actions as there are for betting actions.
 

BGinGA

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I recall a WSOP ruling a few years back where heads up at showdown, Player 1 tabled his cards and Player 2 tossed his hand into the muck. The dealer retrieved the hand and exposed it and Player 2 was awarded the pot with the better hand. The floor ruling was that heads up, you cannot fold your hand and must table it, presumably to prevent collusion/chip dumping.
^^ Absolutely true for tourney play.

Howver, there is no requirement for a player to actually show a hand in cash games at showdown (except to collect the pot, and that may not even apply if all other hands concede/discard/fold), unless there is a house rule that specifically states otherwise.
 

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WedgeRock

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^^ Absolutely true for tourney play.

Howver, there is no requirement for a player to actually show a hand in cash games at showdown (except to collect the pot, and that may not even apply if all other hands concede/discard/fold), unless there is a house rule that specifically states otherwise.
Agreed that the 'must table at showdown' is a tourney rule, not a cash game rule... But OP's question related to a tournament, so I didn't think it was necessary to give a more complex answer than required.

The point I was making was, at least at the WSOP (several years ago, I don't know if it's changed), you can say 'fold' and it's not a fold (if both players are at showdown and one is all in).*

*The WSOP example above didn't include the fact that the players were (at least one was) all in at showdown. Going back to clarify that now.
 
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