Tourney How do you play it? (3 Viewers)

[WedgeRock]

5 handed late in a tournament where 4 spots are paid.

You are SB with maybe 3-5xBB left. BB easily has the entire table covered.

UTG goes AI, UTG+1 folds. Back to the button who goes AI. Turns out both AIs were in for the exact same amount, and it covers your stack.

You look down at JJ.

 

[BGinGA]

Fold.

 

[upNdown]

I very angrily go all in.

 

[Ghoti]

Please don't fold.

 

[ChaosRock]

5 handed late in a tournament where 4 spots are paid.

You are SB with maybe 3-5xBB left. BB easily has the entire table covered.

UTG goes AI, UTG+1 folds. Back to the button who goes AI. Turns out both AIs were in for the exact same amount, and it covers your stack.

You look down at JJ.

I think it's close man... And by that I mean I do not think it's a huge mistake either way. Forgetting ICM (LOL at small stakes) I think it's closer to a call, as I think you're a few points above even money. If you really want to make a few bucks and gain some points, folding is not super bad either.

I find at home games people play short stack a bit snugger that one should though. So the better your view of the shove and call players, the more I'd lean towards a call...

 

[Rhodeman77]

Some people will say it shouldn’t matter, but what was the buy-in amount and how much does 4th place pay?

In a vacuum I say go all-in. But if min cashing is a decent amount of money or if there are other implications like points for a league I could find a fold.

 

[Ghoti]

I understand you're guaranteed a cash if you muck (really, exactly the same amount?!?), but you're so often ahead here, possibly way ahead of both. It's pretty pertinent how many bbs chip leader and second place have, and what the payouts are. I guess folding could be ok if second and first place have a tone of chips and the payouts are flat.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Fist pump, clap, high five your friends while you run around the table after throwing your hand into the muck

 

[BGinGA]

Fold.

To expand on this, I think that JJ is usually a coin-flip vs the button's hand at best, and you actually win the three-handed hand < 50% of the time. That makes you a favorite to get knocked out and bubble if you call, and almost guaranteed to cash if you fold. No-brainer.

 

[WedgeRock]

The buyin is $40, I'm on a rebuy (so $80 invested) and 4th place is $120 (although payouts had not been calculated before this hand occurred).

League points are also in play.

And it wasn't known that both AIs had the exact same amount until after the hand.

 

[ChaosRock]

Maybe worth mentioning that the buying is $40, I'm on a rebuy (so $80 invested) and 4th place is $120 (although payouts had not been calculated before this hand occurred).

I think it's fine to fold. IMO though, I think it is a slightly -EV play*, but just slightly...

* Purely equity.

 

[Ghoti]

To expand on this, I think that JJ is usually a coin-flip vs the button's hand at best, and you actually win the three-handed hand < 50% of the time. That makes you a favorite to get knocked out and bubble if you call, and almost guaranteed to cash if you fold. No-brainer.

Button could easily have 88-1010, possibly lower, so saying usually and at best is a bit of an exaggeration. It might be a coin flip, but one that could be well worth taking to triple up and put us into contention. On that, I think we need some more info, as I mentioned.

 

[ChaosRock]

Button could easily have 88-1010, possibly lower, so saying usually and at best is a bit of an exaggeration. It might be a coin flip, but one that could be well worth taking to triple up and put us into contention. On that, I think we need some more info, as I mentioned.

Just to add: not only 88-TT but also AJ, AT and possibly KJ.

Yes, I know you block with the JJs...

 

[Ghoti]

Kj is stretching it i think, depending on the situation and how many bb he has (still don't think that was posted?), but aj definitely. I should have included that.

 

[WedgeRock]

BB was the chip leader and had the table covered by a large amount. I think UTG+1, the first guy to fold, was healthy.

My stack was the short stack (3-5xBB) the two AIs were shortish (maybe 7-10ish BB's), but both had me covered.

First AI was @ThePunk and button AI was @detroitdad.

 

[ChaosRock]

BB was the chip leader and had the table covered by a large amount. I think UTG+1, the first guy to fold, was healthy.

My stack was the short stack, the two AIs were shortish, but both had me covered.

First AI was @ThePunk and button AI was @detroitdad.

Not fair for me to comment then, LOL!!!!

 

[Jambine]

You look down at JJ.

If you want some money, fold.
I you want all the money or nothing, All In

 

[Ghoti]

Not sure of the league prize, but that does affect things as well. In the parlance of our times, shit has gotten real.

 

[Psypher1000]

I think that JJ is usually a coin-flip vs the button's hand at best,

Bingo. If it was just UTG shoving, then I shove. Since Button shoved as well, let those to fight it out and live to see another day.

 

[BGinGA]

Button could easily have 88-1010, possibly lower, so saying usually and at best is a bit of an exaggeration. It might be a coin flip

I disagree that it's an exaggeration.... equal chances that Button has 88/99/TT or QQ/KK/AA, and personally I'm not calling an all-in shove in this spot with my entire stack holding anything worse than AK or AQ, and I might even fold AQ if UTG was a super-nit. Lol at calling with KQ or AT in this situation, unless UtG is an A2C kind of player.

League points are also in play.

Depending on the current standings and points distribution, this could easily be the most important facet of the decision.

 

[ChaosRock]

Lol at calling with KQ or AT in this situation.

The above represents my earlier comment that at home games, the short stack play is way tighter than it should be.

 

[Ghoti]

I disagree that it's an exaggeration.... equal chances that Button has 88/99/TT or QQ/KK/AA, and personally I'm not calling an all-in shove in this spot with my entire stack holding anything worse than AK or AQ, and I might even fold AQ if UTG was a super-nit. Lol at calling with KQ or AT in this situation, unless UtG is an A2C kind of player.


Depending on the current standings and points distribution, this could easily be the most important facet of the decision.

Fair enough, but there are enough plausible hands in between those that make it considerable. And now that I hear they only have 7-10bbs, I think calling becomes even more justifiable. However, I do want to know what prizes there are in the league, as well as the points the player stands to gain and where he stands in the rankings up to this point.

 

[upNdown]

I need to change my vote.
If I knew there were league points, that alone might have been enough to swing it. But that min cash is pretty good. I’m used to a min cash being what you bought in for. 3x the buy-in, AND league points? Yeah, I’ll fold.

 

[v1pe]

Tough, I don't think I'm folding but that might be a leak. My rationale is that I think there's a pretty good chance that UTG and BTN will block each other and/or have an underpair to your JJ. I'd be interested to put it in a solver to see what your equity might be.

My gut instinct is that a call is sightly +EV in a vacuum. But I don't think a fold is bad at all given the min cash amount and the league points.

 

[ChaosRock]

My gut instinct is that a call is sightly +EV in a vacuum.

That would be a function of how wide you think UTG is shoving and how wide is BTN calling. But yeah, for me, the call was slightly +EV.

 

[JStew]

Fold. A guaranteed cash is a win if your game looks anything like mine. Looking forward to results.

 

[Bill]

Raise.

 

[WedgeRock]

I'd be interested to put it in a solver to see what your equity might be.

I haven't revealed the hands yet other than my own, but here's the equities (I don't remember suits, but I don't think it mattered -- I don't think anyone was holding suited card).

Before this tournament:

UTG+1 in 6th place with 25.65 points
Button in 13th place with 17.28 points (only a sub and missed 3 events already)
Hero in 4th place with 27.01 points

Top 9 make it to the Championship (with this event and one more event to go). bonus chips (25% of total chips in play) are added and distributed based on ratio of points of all players at the table.

Points based on finish with buyin and rebuy:

So in addition to $120, I picked up 0.65 extra points by finishing 4th instead of 5th.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Equities are irrelevant when you are playing against ranges and ICM. KK- is an easy fold

 

[WedgeRock]

I appreciate the comments, and I see the validity in a shove/call and a fold. I'm not sure how JJ is an "easy fold" when I had 3-5 BB's (IIRC, it was closer to 3 BB's). I was going to be on the BB in 4 hands and likely shoving with ATC rather than JJ. No antes in play, FYI.