Tourney How do you rule this one (1 Viewer)

[Frogzilla]

Casino MTT. Unusual one.

I’m in SB. Cards are dealt, Bb grabs my cards, puts on her cards, then says “uh whoops I just grabbed his hand”. The entire table folds. Floor is called.

 

[Benjaminotaur]

I would say the table agreed to rule it a misdeal since there’s no coming back from all that muckage. I’d say a warning for the BB would be warranted

 

[glynn]

As a TD, I award you the pot. The BB has a greater responsibility to not void both of your hands than you do to protect your hand. (Edit: If there were a third player, they would get the pot, as both you and the BB failed your responsibilities.)

I do not rule a misdeal. Everyone folded — that is more than enough significant action.

 

[l33tf0b]

Typically they pull all the cards because no action after. Most clubs ask where and what’s the action. If there was a raise and a call after then the other hand and small blind is dead. They might give the blind back if not from the pot then from the bank. Or they just forfeit the blinds also.

 

[MrBoosh]

Were the cards protected with a chip or some kind of card protector? If not, this is a good example of why it is a good idea to use one. It is the player's responsibility to protect their hand.

 

[casinochipper22]

if there was substantial action, then both your hands are dead. if the floor walks up to the table and everyones cards are in the muck and the last two hands are mixed up, then i'd just call it a misdeal and move on. not much you can do after that. but if there were a couple folds in turn or a bet/raise or a bet/fold, then hand plays and both you and the card stealing BB are out of luck.

 

[casinochipper22]

if the floor walks up to the table and everyones cards are in the muck and the last two hands are mixed up, then i'd just call it a misdeal and move on.

I do not rule a misdeal. Everyone folded — that is more than enough significant action.

I'm assuming everyone just folded at the same time, not like one at a time in turn. but yeah, if players are mucking in turn and then it gets around to you guys that would be funny. and just annoying. I'd probably take your blinds out of play for such a nuisance. haha. but more seriously, if that were the case, it folded around to you two and she took your cards, then the pot would be yours. she literally stole your hand.

 

[Machine]

Interesting, I think I would award the button the pot and give her a warning.

 

[buzzmonkey]

Were the cards protected with a chip or some kind of card protector? If not, this is a good example of why it is a good idea to use one. It is the player's responsibility to protect their hand.

Except the dealer didn't take the cards, another player did. Players should never touch another player's cards. That is an instant warning and possible immediate disqualification from the tournament if the player is already known to have a history of bad behavior at the tables.

 

[Frogzilla]

Were the cards protected with a chip or some kind of card protector? If not, this is a good example of why it is a good idea to use one. It is the player's responsibility to protect their hand.

it happened before I capped my cards…immediately after dealing. But yes normally would use a capper.

 

[WedgeRock]

Is lighting BB's face on fire and putting it out with a hammer not an option?

 

[Frogzilla]

Is light BB's face on fire and putting it out with a hammer not an option?

She claimed she plays a lot of PLO and grabbed the four cards closest to her out of habit. And while hard to verify this, she claims my cards are the top two of her four cards pile. Unclear if she has looked at her PLO hand or just corralled them.

Is there a world where my hand is retrievable and playable at this point?

 

[Benjaminotaur]

Is there a world where my hand is retrievable and playable at this point?

In a friendly home game? We’ve bent the rules like this before. Never felt right as it was happening though, so we started to err on the side of “misdeal”

At a casino, regardless of game or stakes, I can’t ever see it being an option everyone agrees is fair or is happy to indulge

 

[Frogzilla]

Interesting floor conversation. I did not participate but found it rather amusing. The floor squashes the idea of a misdeal outright. It wasn’t a misdeal and there’s been significant action.

At that point the cutoff mentions he had a hand that would have raised but he thought it was a misdeal. The player next to him starts lobbying for the cutoff to get the pot which lol. The floor then rules since everyone mucked, it’s my pot. The BB does not like this, says “he doesn’t have any cards, how can he possibly win” which the floor replies “You took his cards!” She asks for the cameras to be checked to confirm that it’s the top two cards of her hand, the floor says no, SB pot, next hand. Cool

 

[Benjaminotaur]

Interesting floor conversation. I did not participate but found it rather amusing. The floor squashes the idea of a misdeal outright. It wasn’t a misdeal and there’s been significant action.

At that point the cutoff mentions he had a hand that would have raised but he thought it was a misdeal. The player next to him starts lobbying for the cutoff to get the pot which lol. The floor then rules since everyone mucked, it’s my pot. The BB does not like this, says “he doesn’t have any cards, how can he possibly win” which the floor replies “You took his cards!” She asks for the cameras to be checked to confirm that it’s the top two cards of her hand, the floor says no, SB pot, next hand. Cool

I really hope someone gave you the deserved “Nice hand” as you dragged your pot

 

[glynn]

As a TD, I award you the pot. The BB has a greater responsibility to not void both of your hands than you do to protect your hand. (Edit: If there were a third player, they would get the pot, as both you and the BB failed your responsibilities.)

I do not rule a misdeal. Everyone folded — that is more than enough significant action.

The floor squashes the idea of a misdeal outright. It wasn’t a misdeal and there’s been significant action.

The floor then rules since everyone mucked, it’s my pot. The BB does not like this, says “he doesn’t have any cards, how can he possibly win” which the floor replies “You took his cards!”

Hell yeah

it happened before I capped my cards…immediately after dealing. But yes normally would use a capper.

Yep, I made some assumptions based on your description of the events. While you have a responsibility to protect your hand, you also need sufficient opportunity to take possession of your hand in order to protect it.

Obviously, "sufficient opportunity" has some subjectivity, and only you can tell us. If for instance you had left your cards hanging out in front of you for five seconds, and MP folded his cards into yours, then our elements are different.

I stand by my edit. If there is a third player involved, then we have to kill your hand and award them the pot barring any way to confidently identify your cards, even though you were not the proximate cause of the mixup.

lol at the cutoff, intentionally kills his own hand and then lobbies for the pot based on a hypothetical. Worth a shot I guess.

 

[WedgeRock]

She claimed she plays a lot of PLO and grabbed the four cards closest to her out of habit.

At least that makes sense. I thought she was just being a bitch and/or trying to be funny.

 

[MrBoosh]

I agree with @glynn. If you were not given a chance to protect your cards then I would award you the blinds. Also, it is only fair that you get the opportunity to muck the BB's hand one time at any point in the evening. Like when she is heads up against an opponent on the river with a huge pot in play.

 

[shorticus]

Because this is a tourney, she has to get a warning at the minimum.

I’m in agreement that she should lose her BB. I actually like the ruling here.

 

[JustinInMN]

Casino MTT. Unusual one.

I’m in SB. Cards are dealt, Bb grabs my cards, puts on her cards, then says “uh whoops I just grabbed his hand”. The entire table folds. Floor is called.

Interesting floor conversation. I did not participate but found it rather amusing. The floor squashes the idea of a misdeal outright. It wasn’t a misdeal and there’s been significant action.

At that point the cutoff mentions he had a hand that would have raised but he thought it was a misdeal. The player next to him starts lobbying for the cutoff to get the pot which lol. The floor then rules since everyone mucked, it’s my pot. The BB does not like this, says “he doesn’t have any cards, how can he possibly win” which the floor replies “You took his cards!” She asks for the cameras to be checked to confirm that it’s the top two cards of her hand, the floor says no, SB pot, next hand. Cool

I'm not sure I love the floor's ruling here either, but this situation is so weird, who knows what's right.

If the floor has determined that substantial action has applied, then I think they have to make some effort to determine who had the last live hand. Even though the BB is the villain in this situation, she's technically right, hero's hand is dead the moment she screwed it so I just don't see how hero can win the pot. Assuming everyone more or less folded in order, and knowing yours and the BB hand's were dead the moment she screwed up, I would be inclined to award the blinds to the button by default.

That said, the floor's assumption that substantial action applies feels flawed if the error was discovered before anyone actually acted, so I am inclined to think misdeal is the best call and I would apply a one-hand penalty to the BB. Not substantial, but enough to lay the baseline to deter repeat offenses.

(Edit to add: if I were to speculate, the floor may not have done this one by the book, but took the opportunity to teach the lesson, always hold your hands until the house confirms a misdeal and to further teach the lesson, don't grab the neighbors cards. In other words, the floor found that hero is the least to blame for the situation and awarded the pot accordingly. Though I do think this ruling overlooks hero's responsibility for protecting his hand when dealt.)

 

[Frogzilla]

I'm not sure I love the floor's ruling here either, but this situation is so weird, who knows what's right.

If the floor has determined that substantial action has applied, then I think they have to make some effort to determine who had the last live hand. Even though the BB is the villain in this situation, she's technically right, hero's hand is dead the moment she screwed it so I just don't see how hero can win the pot. Assuming everyone more or less folded in order, and knowing yours and the BB hand's were dead the moment she screwed up, I would be inclined to award the blinds to the button by default.

That said, the floor's assumption that substantial action applies feels flawed if the error was discovered before anyone actually acted, so I am inclined to think misdeal is the best call and I would apply a one-hand penalty to the BB. Not substantial, but enough to lay the baseline to deter repeat offenses.

(Edit to add: if I were to speculate, the floor may not have done this one by the book, but took the opportunity to teach the lesson, always hold your hands until the house confirms a misdeal and to further teach the lesson, don't grab the neighbors cards. In other words, the floor found that hero is the least to blame for the situation and awarded the pot accordingly. Though I do think this ruling overlooks hero's responsibility for protecting his hand when dealt.)

Button makes the most sense to me also from the actual rules.

I think the most common sense was misdeal but there was no error in the deal, is there any exception where player actions could cancel the hand completely? If no one had folded is there anything in rules allowing it to just be redone?

 

[JustinInMN]

I think the most common sense was misdeal but there was no error in the deal, is there any exception where player actions could cancel the hand completely? If no one had folded is there anything in rules allowing it to just be redone?

I have certainly seen instances where if a player grabs a neighbors card by mistake though no fault of the dealer, they will still go with misdeal if discovered before substantial action.

Based on your original description, that seems to be what happened. Big blind realized she took an extra hand, pointed out the error promptly, and then everyone released their hands. Since the irregularity is pointed out before action, I am fine with misdeal.

But based on the conversation you relayed from the floor, that does not seem to be the impression they were under and the folds were just regular actions.

 

[Frogzilla]

I have certainly seen instances where if a player grabs a neighbors card by mistake though no fault of the dealer, they will still go with misdeal if discovered before substantial action.

Based on your original description, that seems to be what happened. Big blind realized she took an extra hand, pointed out the error promptly, and then everyone released their hands. Since the irregularity is pointed out before action, I am fine with misdeal.

But based on the conversation you relayed from the floor, that does not seem to be the impression they were under and the folds were just regular actions.

The dealer asked the players to hold on and wait for the floor but they really wanted to fold. It was a fun hand lol.

 

[allforcharity]

Is light BB's face on fire and putting it out with a hammer not an option?

I'd opt to be a little gentler and settle for a fresh urine stream.

 

[WedgeRock]

is there any exception where player actions could cancel the hand completely? If no one had folded is there anything in rules allowing it to just be redone?

This happens all the time in home games... Dealer at the end of the table sends cards, someone grabs the wrong cards, someone has looked. We usually rule that a misdeals and do it all over.

At a casino with a dealer, its less likely to happen, but still could.

 

[ArielVer18]

I’m in SB. Cards are dealt, Bb grabs my cards, puts on her cards, then says “uh whoops I just grabbed his hand”. The entire table folds. Floor is called.

Is the order of these events correct? Seems like BB tried to call attention to the irregularity immediately in an attempt to pause the action. Therefore, the entire table folding afterward doesn't count as substantial action. Misdeal.

 

[TheOffalo]

The dealer asked the players to hold on and wait for the floor but they really wanted to fold. It was a fun hand lol.

If that’s the case the cutoff has even less standing to complain about the fact that he would have raised with his hand.

People who chose to fold before waiting for the floor, their hands are dead. If they all waited, floor probably would have called it a misdeal. Based on the odd situation I like floor’s call of awarding the pot to the SB.

 

[Taghkanic]

It sounds like maybe the dealer did a poor job of distributing the cards.

If s/he is dealing properly, your cards should not be so easily within reach of your neighbor.

If your cards got dealt short of the mark, forcing you to reach for them, that creates the opportunity for a neighbor to screw things up as she did.

 

[BGinGA]

She claimed she plays a lot of PLO and grabbed the four cards closest to her out of habit. And while hard to verify this, she claims my cards are the top two of her four cards pile. Unclear if she has looked at her PLO hand or just corralled them.

Is there a world where my hand is retrievable and playable at this point?

No, although her explanation does makes some sense.

Bottom line:

SB has no hand (thus dead), and BB has an illegal 4-card hand (and thus dead). Action (all folds) has made it all the way around to the two dead hands, so there is no winner. The two posted blinds are moved from play, button is moved, and tournament play resumes with a verbal warning to the BB player. Button has no hand either, so no way he gets rewarded for folding to two dead hands.

If this were a cash game, I'd rule that SB wins the blinds (same reasoning as floor's ruling in your case).

 

[JustinInMN]

No, although her explanation does makes some sense.

Bottom line:

SB has no hand (thus dead), and BB has an illegal 4-card hand (and thus dead). Action (all folds) has made it all the way around to the two dead hands, so there is no winner. The two posted blinds are moved from play, button is moved, and tournament play resumes with a verbal warning to the BB player. Button has no hand either, so no way he gets rewarded for folding to two dead hands.

If this were a cash game, I'd rule that SB wins the blinds (same reasoning as floor's ruling in your case).

If the button had the last live hand, why wouldn't he win?