Discovered a cheat (1 Viewer)

[slisk250]

There is a player in the larger games that has a rep as being very good and dangerous. He plays the higher stakes cash games that I won't play over here. I've played against him in tournaments and he is solid, knows his way around the card table.

I was at a game off camp that I've been to before. The host is an honest dude. Sometimes, we have a pair of dedicated dealers sitting across from each other in place of having guys deal from the end of the table. It turns out the player in question was in a middle seat so was dealing quite a bit.

After about 30 minutes, my friend I arrived with asked me to come outside for a smoke break. Odd because I don't smoke and he usually goes alone. He told me what he saw and to watch for it when we returned to the game. We are convinced that when others are not watching, he fans the top few cards quickly and reads them by looking at the back of his shiny reflective phone case sitting on the table behind his chips. I saw it a couple times too after he alerted me to it. He was kind of blocking the view from one direction with the way his stack was arranged. I believe he made a few bets with knowledge of what the turn or river might be. So next time there is an actual break, we talked about how to handle it off to the side out of earshot. Not wanting violence to ensue, we just cashed out and let our friends and the host know what we saw via email shortly after.

Pay attention to the dealer if you don't know them enough to trust them!

 

[gopherblue]

Ugh. Yet another in my list of reasons why when people ask me why I don’t like phones at the table.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I will be a little more vigilant at my next game. It is one of the nice things about rotating deals though - far fewer opportunities to pull off such a scam.

I also commend you and your friend on how you handled the situation. Nobody likes a cheat, and the cheat will never confess, so there was no way to win.

Sadly, when I first got into home poker, I decided to not play at stakes that would tempt cheating. After a while, I thought "I'm just being paranoid". Now I'm not so sure. (n) :thumbsdown:

 

[mike32]

We had a cheater of sorts in a low stakes tournament I play in. A friend pointed out that this guy would frequently collect the cards after a hand was folded. He would put the player's cards who did not show on the bottom of the stub, then quickly tip the stub so he could see what was folded. Pretty sad but he was just trying to get information I guess. He was one of
the better players in the game, and he seemed to really enjoy it. He is no longer invited.

 

[upNdown]

We had a cheater of sorts in a low stakes tournament I play in. A friend pointed out that this guy would frequently collect the cards after a hand was folded. He would put the player's cards who did not show on the bottom of the stub, then quickly tip the stub so he could see what was folded. Pretty sad but he was just trying to get information I guess. He was one of
the better players in the game, and he seemed to really enjoy it. He is no longer invited.

I think that might be the most common cheat at home games.

 

[Poker Zombie]

A friend pointed out that this guy would frequently collect the cards after a hand was folded. He would put the player's cards who did not show on the bottom of the stub, then quickly tip the stub so he could see what was folded. Pretty sad but he was just trying to get information I guess. He was one of
the better players in the game, and he seemed to really enjoy it. He is no longer invited.

I've often wondered if players like this were maliciously cheating, or were cheating out of curiosity. When it's a stronger player taking the free peek it's probably info-mining, but an obvious newbie might be looking out of sheer curiosity.

Neither one is right, but in my opinion the ban hammer only comes down on one of them, while the other gets a stern warning.

 

[MD Mike]

Playing stakes over 1/2, 2/4 will bring the cheaters. Playing 10/20, 20/40 will bring the armed robbers.

Stick to quarter through dollar stakes

If you want to play higher stakes, a casino has great security.

I would feel super uncomfortable having like 20,000 in cash laying around on the table, in the cash drawer and in peoples pockets.

Of course I’m also a scaredy cat!

 

[Psypher1000]

Playing stakes over 1/2, 2/4 will bring the cheaters.

Mate, I don’t even inherently trust all players at 5c/10c. In my experience, if there’s a game with money involved, someone’s going to try to find an edge or an angle. Too many prideful and/or desperate people out there to assume otherwise.

(Yes, you should absolutely read that as “I have seen people Lying and cheating over nickels and quarters.”)

 

[inca911]

Shiny, reflective objects on the table are a no no: a very common way to peek, called a "glimmer" or "glim". Darwin Ortiz wrote a book on gambling scams and cheats, which is worth a read to know what to look for. I've caught one actual cheater doing discard culls at a game back in college playing high spade Chicago. It's best to be educated on the subject to protect any game you play.

 

[Psypher1000]

Pay attention to the dealer if you don't know them enough to trust them!

Word.

I find this mildly ironic in a place where the punishment for stealing is so severe. Obviously you’re not going to hack the dude’s hand off (I think?) but it just seems extra brassy to cheat like that in the Kingdom.

 

[DJ Mack]

I find this mildly ironic in a place where the punishment for stealing is so severe. Obviously you’re not going to hack the dude’s hand off (I think?) but it just seems extra brassy to cheat like that in the Kingdom.

I thought so too but on the other hand the chance of the victims going to the authorities is slightly less than zero.

It’s somewhat similar to when people call the cops to say their drug dealer ripped them off. It doesn’t end well for anyone involved.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Playing stakes over 1/2, 2/4 will bring the cheaters. Playing 10/20, 20/40 will bring the armed robbers.

Stick to quarter through dollar stakes

If you want to play higher stakes, a casino has great security.

I would feel super uncomfortable having like 20,000 in cash laying around on the table, in the cash drawer and in peoples pockets.

Of course I’m also a scaredy cat!

Very true.
I used to live in an apartment complex in the west end of Richmond where there was a high stakes cash game several times a week. The apartment was specifically rented out for this purpose. It started off as a $5/$10 NL game but eventually swelled to much higher stakes.
At times it was very common to see $50000- $80000 on the table.
I heard one time a guy actually faked a seizure so his friend could switch the deck while everyone was distracted.
As time went on and word about the game got out, it was robbed at gun point.
Definitely lots of potential for problems to occur when you play high stakes outside of a casino.
Anything over $2-$5 is above my comfort level.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I played in an underground game that had a dedicated dealer. The dealer would change from game to game depending on who was available.

On this night it was a younger guy that was too broke to be able to play himself. He also happened to work for one of the games regulars as a driver. The regular was horrible, a huge fish for sure. As soon as he lost a big pot he would be in life tilt.


So the regular and get into a huge hand where I 4 bet him preflop and shove on the flop. He ends up folding. The dealer was caught peaking at my cards when he pulled in the muck and told them to the regular. Very convenient that they were sitting right next to each other.

Made us all wonder how many times he was telling him hands before he got caught?

He never dealt that game again or received a tip from me, and most of the table the rest of the night.

 

[BGinGA]

Ugh. Yet another in my list of reasons why when people ask me why I don’t like phones at the table.

Agreed, and also why I don't like games where the players handle the cards (shuffle or deal).

 

[Jambine]

we just cashed out and let our friends and the host know what we saw via email shortly after.

In a private game that's really all you can do. Unfortunate

 

[Poker Zombie]

In a private game that's really all you can do. Unfortunate

...unless you're Club Courage. True degens have access to actual dealers.

 

[pltrgyst]

I think that might be the most common cheat at home games.

Interesting. It's natural when collecting the cards for the last ones pitched to be collected on the bottom of the deck.

And whether it's passed deal or if I'm dealing all the time, I always turn the deck face-up for the first four riffs to counter the curve of the cards that develops naturally over time, then turn the deck face down for the last shuffle.

Guess I'll have to start making a point of gathering the cards up differently to avoid being a suspected cheat...

 

[72o]

I think that might be the most common cheat at home games.

Yup see it all the time and hate it...usually the person is just being a jackass though. But I'll let it slide once and only once per night because it's not really being done as a cheat per se and they do it so blatantly obvious that its laughable.

 

[slisk250]

Word.

I find this mildly ironic in a place where the punishment for stealing is so severe. Obviously you’re not going to hack the dude’s hand off (I think?) but it just seems extra brassy to cheat like that in the Kingdom.

It's more ballsy that this is a very small community with no legal gambling. There are maybe 5 people that host good games around town in our circles. Everyone knows each other. He is off all game invites. He is done playing cards in this town.

 

[TexRex]

All that I say below, I think the OP handled it well.

I've seen cheating in penny-ante, 10c limit games! A professional poker player told me in the 1980s he suspected most of the cheating that happens in poker happens in 5c ante, 25c limit, and 3 max raises poker. He believed that it happens at much higher stakes too, but his point is most of the cheating occurs where it wouldn't even be suspected. It's easy to hide something when others aren't expecting it and aren't looking for it.

Lesson 1 -- There is no amount of money that is too small to cheat. Think about it. People will cheat in a game where there is NOTHING on the line except the fun of playing. If people will cheat at that, they will cheat for any amount of money.

Lesson 2 -- Accusations of cheating can be tough. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "He would never do that." "Our game is so small no one would cheat." "We have an honest group." If comments or attitudes like these cause you to not watch, you are probably a cheating victim and don't know it. At the very least, you are a highly likely candidate to be a victim of cheating.

Accusations are often not received well by other victims. They do not want to believe they were cheated. I also think that might be because of comments they've made like "If I caught someone cheating, I'd do xyz to them." But when confronted with it in real life, they don't want to do xyz to the cheater. It's easier to not believe the accusations.

Lesson 3 -- Not all cheaters are the same. For some, it's a cutthroat money issue and basic dishonesty. With others, it is not about the money, but they get something out of it that goes beyond my ability to understand. When a person knows the rules and deliberately violates them to give them an advantage, it's cheating and it's wrong.

One thing I watch is the "pseudo honest" guy. These are people who will mislead you and make you think they are so honest you don't even need to watch them. Here's an example.

Gary (good player) says to Joe (neophyte) when they are heads up and Joe just folded, "Joe, when you fold your hand, keep them low to the table. I saw the bottom card when you lifted it up high to fold."

Now, I'm not accusing Gary of any wrongdoing here. Maybe he's genuinely trying to educate Joe. But other players do that and he never says a word. Why not? Maybe he thinks Joe doesn't realize and the rest are big boys. Maybe he thinks one "shot across the bow" serves as a warning to all others. Or maybe he's picking this situation to make the comment knowing that others who are less observant will think, "What a good guy Gary is! He's warning the new guy so others don't cheat by looking at new guy's cards. Glad we have him since he watches out for all of us." Not so fast. Gary might want you to believe he's honest so you don't look for his cheating. Most wouldn't analyze Gary's other actions to try to know why he did it there.

Gary's motive might be as pure as the driven snow, but I wouldn't assume that. When I hear things like that, I give Gary more than normal scrutiny. The vast majority of the time, I conclude he's just being a good guy trying to help a newbie and others. But a couple of times I've concluded it's just an act. He does it to spotlight his honest on occasion.

As President Reagan said, "Trust but verify." It applies to ALL levels of play.

 

[bsdunbar1]

I would guess 95% of my regular players I would trust with the keys to my house, but I did have had to ask a player not to return because several people were convinced he was cheating. (He would have been in the 5% before this incident) They went to the extent of recording him shuffling on their phones. I reviewed their recordings and although it wasn't anything conclusive, it was enough of something going on that I had to ask him not to return. I was honest with him and told him guys recorded him and I thought it was fishy enough that he was not welcome back. Of course he was defensive and said "I understand when someone wins all the time the weaker players suspect him of cheating". I agree with whoever said a cheater will always defend themselves and never admit to it.

Our weekly league games have .50/$1 played for a couple hours as players get knocked out of the weekly tourney. Most weeks there isn't enough time to get any substantial money in play but for the $40 max buy-in it is not uncommon for guys to cash out 2-$300. And this particular guy cashed out big way more often than not.
The stakes will not dictate if someone will cheat or not, its all about the people. Cheaters will cheat for $5 or $500.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Interesting. It's natural when collecting the cards for the last ones pitched to be collected on the bottom of the deck.

And whether it's passed deal or if I'm dealing all the time, I always turn the deck face-up for the first four riffs to counter the curve of the cards that develops naturally over time, then turn the deck face down for the last shuffle.

Guess I'll have to start making a point of gathering the cards up differently to avoid being a suspected cheat...

I don’t think gathering the cards the way you describe and shuffling would automatically make you a suspected cheat.
I’ve known guys who shuffle as you described and I never thought of them as cheaters.
I have seen players like @mike32 mentions who intentionally try to look at other players muck cards to get info.
IMO doing that is very unethical but I’m not sure if it’s cheating in the same sense as marking or stacking a deck.
When I gather cards after a deal I usually drop the remaining cards in the deck onto the muck cards and give them a slight washing. I figure this way no one can spot anyone’s actual played or folded cards.
If I suspected someone of purposely trying to get info from mucked cards, I’d have a sidebar with them and tell them to stop doing what it was they were doing. If they continued after that then I would no longer invite them to play.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Sadly, when I first got into home poker, I decided to not play at stakes that would tempt cheating. After a while, I thought "I'm just being paranoid". Now I'm not so sure. (n) :thumbsdown:

I've seen guys cheat in a small $20 buyin home game tournament and at the casino in a limit 3/6 Omaha hi/lo cash game. Cheaters are gonna cheat, stakes be damned it seems

 

[CHP TD]

This is my pet peeve.

in the cheating world this even has a term - yep its a thing.

I have a dvd on how to cheat at poker. you wouldn't believe the lengths people will go to.

If your gonna host, you better know what a cheat looks like and how to catch them.

WATCH EVERYTHING!

• Use cut cards! cant deal off the bottom with a cut card.
• Know what second card dealing looks like.
  
• know what a pull through and push through false riffle shuffle look like.
• watch out for people giving chips to their mates.
  
• Have lots of decks on hand - if you think there's a cheater marking cards, swap them out at a break.
  
• watch for marked cards. people checking using a chip on the cards to dent them is one ive seen. Check your decks CAREFULLY after the game. shiny spots, dents, bent cards, scratches or anything.
  
• have a look on eBay for marked cards. Its an eye opener.

Trust everyone - Still cut the cards!

get educated. If money is involved someone will look for an edge.

and like people have said i run a game where you wont make a huge chunk of change but you wont lose one either.

 

[HomeGamePokerChips]

eye opening!

 

[Poker Zombie]

I've seen guys cheat in a small $20 buyin home game tournament and at the casino in a limit 3/6 Omaha hi/lo cash game. Cheaters are gonna cheat, stakes be damned it seems

I have to agree - cheaters gonna cheat. I've played at many gaming conventions, where there was no money on the line, yet I have seen all sorts of cheating going on from die rolls where the die only rolls a 1/4 turn, to "misreading" cards, to "bumping" game pieces into a better position. It's sad really, but I try to not let it take any of the fun away from the game.

I guess that in order to be a "good" cheater, you need to hone your skills at the lower levels first. If you get caught in a friendly, low-stakes game the punishment will be far less severe than it would be if you were caught cheating in a big-stakes raked, back-room game, or in a casino. Therefore, our home games are prime-targets for these fledgling grifters.

In a $20 tournament I might get a low-stakes cheat who will take little more than $20 from me. In a 1/2 game they threaten to take much more from me, and that would sour my enjoyment of the game.

 

[WedgeRock]

 

[SWEATER]

This is why when I host I make sure to use the "vouching" system.

 

[zbyrook]

Very sad to hear this news. Hopefully everyone stays mindful during home games.

 

[CHP TD]

is this an appropriate time for torches and pitchforks?