How do you explain to someone why they weren't invited to a game? (2 Viewers)

[TheTrout]

I am still working on the exact wording of this. In my House Rules, those words will be linked to "What hand beats what" sheets.

That's what I mean by "practice more". I am trying to weed out people who need a hand sheet to tell if they have a flush or not. If you have suggestios, please give!

I am definitely with you on that. No useful suggestions I’m afraid, but I don’t want to explain to someone why they lost, when it’s their turn to bet, and who is little/big blind. I’m exhausted after an hour of that lol.

 

[3ars]

I understand the sentiment here and this is really well thought out and stated. Kudos.

HOWEVER…by “practice more” what you really mean is “you need to make calls, folds, and raises like we do.”

And that strikes me as not right. Of course your game, your call. But it sounds weird to me

If there's anything I learned from this whole debate is that people requiring a minimum skill level can be easily misconstrued. What we mean by that statement is not "you need to bet like us" or "you don't respect our raises enough to play with us". But as numerous people have already explained in this thread, low experience players aren't always the right type of player for the game.

Having more experience doesn't mean we all play alike. you can be a shit player with solid experience, and you can be an unconventional player with experience who makes villains scratch their heads all the time. But unconventional and beginner are vastly different terms.

Coincidentally though, beginners ARE people who "don't bet like us" and "don't respect our raises", but that's not why we don't want to invite them, that's just a symptom of the real issue. They're not serious enough / they're too slow etc... If I'm in the mood to play a casual game where I teach them the basics, then by all means no problem. But I am allowed to enforce some minimum standards once in a while.

 

[Preditor]

Coincidentally though, beginners ARE people who "don't bet like us" and "don't respect our raises", but that's not why we don't want to invite them, that's just a symptom of the real issue. They're not serious enough / they're too slow etc... If I'm in the mood to play a casual game where I teach them the basics, then by all means no problem. But I am allowed to enforce some minimum standards once in a while.

Bravo, OP. You've summed this up beautifully. And this is a distinction many people calling you "elitist" fail to understand, from my perspective.

 

[KHarp1]

Looks like an opportunity to host another tournament on another night where the stakes are slightly lower and all are invited.

 

[3ars]

Looks like an opportunity to host another tournament on another night where the stakes are slightly lower and all are invited.

casual games will always be a thing in my calendar, and all are always welcome unless you're a dick outside of poker. I'm not tryhard enough to want to think for 8 hours straight every week on high stakes tournaments

 

[TheTrout]

If there's anything I learned from this whole debate is that people requiring a minimum skill level can be easily misconstrued. What we mean by that statement is not "you need to bet like us" or "you don't respect our raises enough to play with us". But as numerous people have already explained in this thread, low experience players aren't always the right type of player for the game.

Having more experience doesn't mean we all play alike. you can be a shit player with solid experience, and you can be an unconventional player with experience who makes villains scratch their heads all the time. But unconventional and beginner are vastly different terms.

Coincidentally though, beginners ARE people who "don't bet like us" and "don't respect our raises", but that's not why we don't want to invite them, that's just a symptom of the real issue. They're not serious enough / they're too slow etc... If I'm in the mood to play a casual game where I teach them the basics, then by all means no problem. But I am allowed to enforce some minimum standards once in a while.

You are allowed to do anything you want whenever you want! Don’t let any of us sway you on that. And that’s not just lip service, I have been there. I have made decisions about my game that I wouldn’t want put up to a PCF vote. If something works for us that’s all I really want.

If your original post had said that the player in question was betting really weird but that wasn’t why there was an issue, it was actually that he was slow and had no idea what was going on, I would have agreed wholeheartedly.

But you said that he needed some help here and there and you were good with that, but you couldn’t tolerate his style of play and bet sizing. I think that is where some of us are getting tripped up.

TL;DR If his slow play and lack of understanding is slowing down the game and disrupting the flow, you don’t have to grin and bear it, I wouldn’t want to play in something like that for very long either.

 

[Preditor]

View attachment 1266090

I understand this is mostly intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but I find this well-meaning but ultimately unhelpful.

If you host a monthly poker tournament, it's unlikely - even among good friends - that you're going to regularly see ALL of your good friends every four weeks. And scheduling a "sit-down" over a home poker game can be tricky and awkward (even if it is necessary).

I guess you could call this chart a good "moral" principe, but lacking nuance and wisdom about a particular situation.

How do I reach out to set up a talk with them? Do I do it over text? Is a phone call appropriate for this? What if they can't meet and I am ready to send out invites to my next game?

These are all practical situations that do - indeed - make such conversations "hard". Even amongst good friends.

 

[GreekRedEye]

are we wrong for not wanting him in our tournaments? ORIGINAL POST

ive learned after this long thread that this phrase will trigger a lot of people in here

i tried my best

I am allowed to enforce some minimum standards once in a while.

This thread has become increasingly defensive. It feels like one of those, "what I learned in kindergatern" scenarios.

For me, the important question here is whether you really want to salvage your friendship. You hurt someone. You rejected him and belittled him because he is less skilled than you. And you, as the leader of a peer group, did that to him collectively. If this friend matters to you at all, then you need to take real steps to repair the friendship. He needs to see that you are upset you hurt him and that you want to fix it. If I were you, I would tell him, "I messed up. I was wrong. I used to suck at poker too but people were patient with me. In the end, I don't want this to come between us. Come back and if anyone gives you a hard time they can go to hell. You will be beating them in no time anyway." But I am not you.

If the game is more important than this friendship, then I guess your path is easy. Just let the friendship die.

 

[3ars]

This thread has become increasingly defensive. It feels like one of those, "what I learned in kindergatern" scenarios.

For me, the important question here is whether you really want to salvage your friendship. You hurt someone. You rejected him and belittled him because he is less skilled than you. And you, as the leader of a peer group, did that to him collectively. If this friend matters to you at all, then you need to take real steps to repair the friendship. He needs to see that you are upset you hurt him and that you want to fix it. If I were you, I would tell him, "I messed up. I was wrong. I used to suck at poker too but people were patient with me. In the end, I don't want this to come between us. Come back and if anyone gives you a hard time they can go to hell. You will be beating them in no time anyway." But I am not you.

If the game is more important than this friendship, then I guess your path is easy. Just let the friendship die.

No friendships are at stake lol we would never let something as stupid as this get in the way of that. I was letting him know as the host why I didn't invite him to the 2nd tournament, he didn't like my answer, and I came here to seek advice on how could I have phrased it better so that he understands, or whether I was potentially wrong in the first place for not inviting him. We were friends long before poker, and we will still be friends long after. This thread went on way longer than I expected lol

 

[ChipFinderSK]

This thread went on way longer than I expected lol

PCF needed something to bicker about - it’s Groundhog Day!

 

[KHarp1]

Good games don't "just happen," they're are many different things that can affect the synergy and flow of the game. This game is kind of designed for a different level than where you are at right now. This game is intentionally structured to play differently. If you're serious about wanting to play in this game, then I'm happy to work with you so that our can work for all involved. You know it's not you, personally, because we all play in the cash game and everyone likes you. I'm sorry if I didn't handle it properly and hurt you in some way, no one, me especially, would ever want that. Hopefully this helps clear things up, and, we can work together to make this a pleasant experience for everyone. That was just off the top of my head, but, something like this should work to help smooth things over.

 

[FestiveKnight]

I understand this is mostly intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but I find this well-meaning but ultimately unhelpful.

If you host a monthly poker tournament, it's unlikely - even among good friends - that you're going to regularly see ALL of your good friends every four weeks. And scheduling a "sit-down" over a home poker game can be tricky and awkward (even if it is necessary).

I guess you could call this chart a good "moral" principe, but lacking nuance and wisdom about a particular situation.

How do I reach out to set up a talk with them? Do I do it over text? Is a phone call appropriate for this? What if they can't meet and I am ready to send out invites to my next game?

These are all practical situations that do - indeed - make such conversations "hard". Even amongst good friends.

Uh... yes it's a bit overly simplistic but you're making this way too hard. Not sure PCF is the place for a therapy session but like, how do you set up a time to talk to them? Again, I am assuming you're an adult. You haven't solved this one already?

 

[Taghkanic]

ive learned after this long thread that this phrase will trigger a lot of people in here

Skillism is oppressive

 

[Taghkanic]

HOWEVER…by “practice more” what you really mean is “you need to make calls, folds, and raises like we do.”

Or, that players need to not slow an established game down to a crawl because they have no idea what is going on.

 

[Preditor]

Uh... yes it's a bit overly simplistic but you're making this way too hard. Not sure PCF is the place for a therapy session but like, how do you set up a time to talk to them? Again, I am assuming you're an adult. You haven't solved this one already?

Last post I am going to make in this thread. I think one of the wisest things a person can do when confronting a friend - whether over a drug habit (as I've had to do with a friend) or some besetting self-destructive behavior, or some behavior at poker night - is to first ask more experienced people on wisdom on how to encounter them.

Disinviting someone from poker is paradoxically not the most serious issue in the world; and yet still a delicate issue. I think when you find yourself in a situation like OP's, it's a legitimate impulse to want to ask other's with more experience wisdom on it.

Personally, I do not know any other home-poker hosts in-the-flesh I am close enough with to ask questions like "Have you had to disinvite someone from your game?" Having done this for only 6 months, I've found it's an incredibly niche (and exciting and fun!) event to host. But because of the uniqueness of it? I think coming to PCF for questions like this is completely natural; to gather information and stories from other host's experiences.

That doesn't mean someone is not mature.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Our tournament Buyin is $120. Our cash game min buy is $20. Playing slow, not knowing what’s going on, tanking every decision affects tournament play and creates more player frustration than in a cash game.

I was under the impression that the player in the OP was bad, not slow. 50BB raise followed by a 1 BB c-bet was the example. That is unorthodox, but neither illegal nor a faux paus. Odd, certainly, but if he does it without dragging down the clock, it's just unfriendly to not invite him because his style is greater than your ability to adjust.

I have no issue with uninviting someone for being slow, especially in a tournament where the clock is essentially eating away at your stack.

 

[Poker Zombie]

while it is true that tournaments can help cut losses, the real stakes in tournament for us is the lack of being able to re enter. We don't play for crazy amounts, usual cash games are like 25$ buy ins where some people spend up to 200$, and tournaments are 50$ buy in, unlimited rebuys till end of level 8, and a 50$ add on.

Anyways, my point is that for us at least, the stakes are higher when you have the potential to be eliminated after less than 3 hours, where in a cash game you can play for 6+ hours. Hence the added seriousness in playstyle. people just don't want to be eliminated from tourneys

So... your point being that you banned the guy from your tournaments, because you cannot play better?

 

[drdr]

It just feels like you're playing the lottery instead of poker when you're up against someone as unpredictable as that. I don't know if this is a weird thing to say for a poker player. There's unpredictable, and there's complete loose cannon. it just puts you in a weird spot where you're either taking money from a close friend who doesn't know any better, or you're put in a hard situation for no real reason. I personally would request a table change at the casino if I was faced with such an opponent, because it's too volatile to no ones benefit. that's the main issue I had

But this, coping with such scenarios IS what poker is. Being able to adapt your own play to particular tables, particular opponents, particular hands. And even better, if you do adapt well it is profitable. A serious group of players would relish the change and challenge.

Two poker nights ago I had similar, a new player playing too many hands and over betting preflop. They kept getting lucky and were destroying some of my regs. Two regs did grumble later after the game and I gently let them know it seems like an opportunity to learn how to adjust their game for such situations one nodded and took it onboard the other hasn't listened yet.

 

[legonick]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet.

I don't get it though - this guy is a fish, who's actual play didn't bother you (had to be reminded actions on him, etc.). He got eaten alive in the tournament game, but had enough fun or whatever, that he wants to come back, and you are denying him that opportunity!?

Luxury problem to have!

 

[jquizo]

As mentioned, someone should talk to friend about the game flow, paying attention, making sure he can operate in flow. Have someone next to him babysit him and make sure he pays attention or you can have a dealer to manage the game flow.

As far as strategy, the way he's playing, you should be able to adjust accordingly. He's right, he should be easy money (he can get lucky since it's a small sample size in a tournament). Just tighten up your range of hands that play against these very weird/loose opens.

Even in cash games, you can see crazy things like this happen from unique players. I've seen someone open UTG blind to 500 in 2/3 500 cap game(166BB) ). I debated calling with K9o from Button but decided to just wait until he does this again for a better position (SB called for a lot less, so saw the run out and would have ended up winning). It's definitely closer to flipping a coin but you have to adjust your play to these fish.

 

[TheYeti]

If weird bet-sizing and "not respecting my raises" was a deal-breaker at my home game, there would literally be two of us left.

 

[Poker Zombie]

If weird bet-sizing and "not respecting my raises" was a deal-breaker at my home game, there would literally be two of us left.

I remember my first home game with a PCF'er. 25¢ / 50¢. folded around to me and I raised $1.75. I got some weird looks, but a couple calls. Flop came out, and I bumped it up to 75¢

"What's with the weird bet sizing", the host asked.

"I like your fracs."

"But you know I have to call 75¢ into a pot of of $5.75, right?"

"Yep. I like your fracs"

He put in a buck and got a quarter change.

Me:

 

[doctorchips]

"weird bet sizing" or "not respecting raises" are very strange things to not invite someone to a game for in my opinion...