Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
My experience in Europe and Australia would indicate that this statement is inherently incorrect. Perhaps Iceland will prove me wrong... but I seriously doubt it.
Tourney Am I a scrooge? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mojo1312
- Start date
My experience in Europe and Australia would indicate that this statement is inherently incorrect. Perhaps Iceland will prove me wrong... but I seriously doubt it.
I disagree. The employer should be paying the wage, not the consumer on a 'good service' basis. If, in your example, the casino paid the dealers $30 an hour and it resulted in an extra $1 rake, so be it. The cost is being spread to the consumer. Let the employer deal with weeding out shitty employees.
In the tipping culture, let's say the table only has 4 winning players who tip. Now the dealer is making less, and has no control over it.
Eliminate the tip. Don't make an employee's living wage my direct responsibility.
crussader
Flush
I think I'll stick with the countless volumes of research into microeconomic theory rather than anecdotal evidence.
JerseyGigolo
Pair
Do you have a link to these countless volumes? I'm curious.
crussader
Flush
To give an in depth economic analysis, I'd have to dig out my old text books (Economics degree from Rice University). Perhaps you'd accept this as an interesting read....
https://mises.org/library/economics-tipping
edit: I thought this was interesting... http://www.insidesources.com/point-the-misunderstood-economics-of-tipping-abolition/
https://mises.org/library/economics-tipping
edit: I thought this was interesting... http://www.insidesources.com/point-the-misunderstood-economics-of-tipping-abolition/
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From your article:
"No doubt low-income servers can be found in the country, but that is hardly the case for servers at moderate-priced — Applebee’s-level — restaurants. I asked 40 servers in such restaurants in Orange County, Calif., the hourly wage they would require to forgo tips. The responses ranged from $18 to $50 an hour, with 62 percent of the servers giving $30 to $50 an hour (much of which can go untaxed).
This means that two married servers between 25 and 40 years old earning only $30 an hour but working full-time would have an annual income of $124,800, putting them in the top 17 percent of all households and the top 12 percent of households in their age category." - "At an Applebee's level'
From the US Department of Labor:
The numbers don't add up - not even close. Show me an average American waiter/ress making $62k a year working full time. One step further, show me an average American Waiter/ress actually working FULL TIME.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
Curious coincidence, I too have a degree from Rice - Masters of Business & public management, focus on entrepreneurship and economics. I don't share the rosy view of tipping from either the customer's point of view or the server's perspective. I could be persuaded otherwise by empirical data, but that kind of information is exceptionally scarce. (perhaps we will learn something from Washington State's $15 minimum wage experiment.) My personal experience leads me to believe salary centric compensation does not lead to poor service levels. But as noted above, anecdotal information doesn't carry a lot of weight.
I will grant the notion that servers at high end establishments are better quality employees because the total compensation package attracts the best of the pool of workers. However, tipping variance does not sort out the good servers from the weaker ones. Even at high end establishments that is the job of management. Please note the causation - higher income leads to better quality service employees. No reason to think that tipping vs salary matters.
Why would that be? Well the servers generally get their "incentive" pay without feed back and often times irrespective of performance. I can't count the times my wife tosses in money to get to 15% - 20% even after awful service. In her mind everyone gets tipped pretty much the same. (again, anecdotal not evidence.) The server is also held hostage to the poor performance of the kitchen and bad management decisions that often greatly degrade customer satisfaction.
But this is missing the point. Many tipped workers are very poorly paid. Sure they make better than minimum wage, but often not much different than similar service workers in wage based jobs. Walmart workers don't get tipped, make about the same as the wait-staff at the local burger joint and have roughly the same modest level of service. Tipping or not doesn't make much difference, if any.
Poker dealers have a very short cycle time vs most other tipped workers. If players actually varied their tips based on how the dealer performed, it could even work as intended. (ideally, the players would explain why they didn't tip or tipped a bunch. ) But that isn't what is observed in the real world. Players tip the same no matter how the dealer performed. They tip big when wining a huge pot, tip a buck on a normal pot and don't tip on tiny pots. Some players don't tip at all. Without a link between the dealer's quality of work and the amount tipped, there is little reason to think making $20 / hr in tips vs $20 / hr in wages matters.
It DOES matter greatly to the business though. "Paying" workers by depending on tips means the risk for slow business falls more heavily on the worker in the short run. Long term slow business is going to lead to loss of hours or loss of job. Most tipped workers don't work at high end establishments. Often they make something close to minimum wage.
I get exceptionally grumpy when the tipped worker is disassociated from the customer. For example, the maid for a hotel room. The typical business hotel stay is less than two nights. Most times the customer does not see the maid or have any way to give feedback. The customer is "just expected" to toss some money on the counter to make up for the crappy pay offered by the hotel. $300/night hotel and the customer is expected to toss the maid another few dollars. That seems crazy to me.
Take a step back and look at the flow of money / information. If variation in tips doesn't come matched with some form of feedback then the tip size has very little useful corrective information for the recipient. Then add in the notion that many tippers, perhaps most, don't link performance to tip size. Or, they tip based on the whole experience, say a huge pot vs a tiny pot or a slow kitchen at lunch rush vs a quick turn around. All-in-all it is a terrible way for a business to manage its staff even if it proves profitable to pay on tips vs higher wages.
Don't kid yourself. Working for tips is mostly a lousy way to earn a living. There are select situations where tipped workers do great. But such situations are the exception, not the common experience.
DrStrange
PS as for the original question posed. I do not think the dealer's tip size should be a function of the size of the winnings. Sometimes the "tip" is built into the buy-in. Maybe we should be tipping even when we lose - especially true if a specific dealer does a great job. Tipping is pointless as a form of feed back when the tips are pooled and then only paid by a handful of winners, with the rest of the players paying nothing.
The "tight wad" question would be better asked about what is done with a good dealer before the event is finished. That is the person I would want to tip - right there in the moment, not at the end of the event.
I will grant the notion that servers at high end establishments are better quality employees because the total compensation package attracts the best of the pool of workers. However, tipping variance does not sort out the good servers from the weaker ones. Even at high end establishments that is the job of management. Please note the causation - higher income leads to better quality service employees. No reason to think that tipping vs salary matters.
Why would that be? Well the servers generally get their "incentive" pay without feed back and often times irrespective of performance. I can't count the times my wife tosses in money to get to 15% - 20% even after awful service. In her mind everyone gets tipped pretty much the same. (again, anecdotal not evidence.) The server is also held hostage to the poor performance of the kitchen and bad management decisions that often greatly degrade customer satisfaction.
But this is missing the point. Many tipped workers are very poorly paid. Sure they make better than minimum wage, but often not much different than similar service workers in wage based jobs. Walmart workers don't get tipped, make about the same as the wait-staff at the local burger joint and have roughly the same modest level of service. Tipping or not doesn't make much difference, if any.
Poker dealers have a very short cycle time vs most other tipped workers. If players actually varied their tips based on how the dealer performed, it could even work as intended. (ideally, the players would explain why they didn't tip or tipped a bunch. ) But that isn't what is observed in the real world. Players tip the same no matter how the dealer performed. They tip big when wining a huge pot, tip a buck on a normal pot and don't tip on tiny pots. Some players don't tip at all. Without a link between the dealer's quality of work and the amount tipped, there is little reason to think making $20 / hr in tips vs $20 / hr in wages matters.
It DOES matter greatly to the business though. "Paying" workers by depending on tips means the risk for slow business falls more heavily on the worker in the short run. Long term slow business is going to lead to loss of hours or loss of job. Most tipped workers don't work at high end establishments. Often they make something close to minimum wage.
I get exceptionally grumpy when the tipped worker is disassociated from the customer. For example, the maid for a hotel room. The typical business hotel stay is less than two nights. Most times the customer does not see the maid or have any way to give feedback. The customer is "just expected" to toss some money on the counter to make up for the crappy pay offered by the hotel. $300/night hotel and the customer is expected to toss the maid another few dollars. That seems crazy to me.
Take a step back and look at the flow of money / information. If variation in tips doesn't come matched with some form of feedback then the tip size has very little useful corrective information for the recipient. Then add in the notion that many tippers, perhaps most, don't link performance to tip size. Or, they tip based on the whole experience, say a huge pot vs a tiny pot or a slow kitchen at lunch rush vs a quick turn around. All-in-all it is a terrible way for a business to manage its staff even if it proves profitable to pay on tips vs higher wages.
Don't kid yourself. Working for tips is mostly a lousy way to earn a living. There are select situations where tipped workers do great. But such situations are the exception, not the common experience.
DrStrange
PS as for the original question posed. I do not think the dealer's tip size should be a function of the size of the winnings. Sometimes the "tip" is built into the buy-in. Maybe we should be tipping even when we lose - especially true if a specific dealer does a great job. Tipping is pointless as a form of feed back when the tips are pooled and then only paid by a handful of winners, with the rest of the players paying nothing.
The "tight wad" question would be better asked about what is done with a good dealer before the event is finished. That is the person I would want to tip - right there in the moment, not at the end of the event.
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You’re supposed to leave money for housekeeping? I can’t say that I’ve ever considered this
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
While anecdotal evidence may not be considered "evidence" by mathematicians, Anecdotal Evidence is information you obtain from a subjective report, an observation, or some kind of example that may or may not be reliable, so it is gathered enmasse for fields of psychology and sociology. Sadly, questions like "was the service better or worse" requires information collected from subjective reports.
My information from multiple locations indicates that tipping does not improve service, but I'd be more than happy to hear from Europeans, Aussies, or anyone else from a non-tipping culture - do you find the service industry in the United States or Canada to be markedly superior to the service in your home counties, for the same class of restaurant/hotel/valet?
My information from multiple locations indicates that tipping does not improve service, but I'd be more than happy to hear from Europeans, Aussies, or anyone else from a non-tipping culture - do you find the service industry in the United States or Canada to be markedly superior to the service in your home counties, for the same class of restaurant/hotel/valet?
Tip money is black. It's tax evasion. As such, it doesn't produce return services from the fundamental service provider, the Government (national security, law and order, infrastructure, education, health and social insurance).
Tips cannot motivate, on the whole, a badly paid, uninsured workforce.
A tip-based economy is also unethical, IMO.
When I want to buy anything, including services, I want to deal with the vendor. If the vendor says "it's almost free, but you 'll have to bribe my slave into doing the job", it's a deal breaker for me. Why not whip the slave, to provide some motivation, if we take that path?
Tips cannot motivate, on the whole, a badly paid, uninsured workforce.
A tip-based economy is also unethical, IMO.
When I want to buy anything, including services, I want to deal with the vendor. If the vendor says "it's almost free, but you 'll have to bribe my slave into doing the job", it's a deal breaker for me. Why not whip the slave, to provide some motivation, if we take that path?
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
...but if you go someplace where tipping is typical, is the service better? You know... for science.
What “good performance?”
It’s not like a waitress or a hairdresser, both of whom can make suggestions and give you extras: The only “good performance” a dealer can have is running by a fast efficient table, and he’s directly incentivized by the casino for doing that, in the way of getting more shifts, better shifts, and good tables.
The only “extra” a dealer can deliver is by being a chatty, amusing guy.
I don’t tip dealers for “good performance” - I tip dealers out of a sense of obligation.
JerseyGigolo
Pair
Agreed in full!
I will tip a dealer (Poker or other table games) more based off their personality. I'm in a casino for amusement, even when playing poker. I want a dealer who, like you said, is a chatty and amusing guy. If you are this dealer, I'm tipping a LOT more often. Nothing is worse than sitting at a table with a non engaged, robot type of dealer.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I'll even go as far as to say that if you are tipping for fast and efficient, digital tables would be a lot more popular.
...and they don't take tips.
crussader
Flush
I thought that's what I was saying
ekricket
Royal Flush
Nobody tips me for playing, and it’s the same monotonous job for hours.
I tip well when I’m up, but not when I’m down. I’ll share the up times with them but they have to share the down times with me too. Personal philosophy. It’s the same everywhere - if I’m up I’ll go out and eat and help pay waitstaff wages, but if I’m down I don’t eat out so I don’t help pay waitstaff wages.
JerseyGigolo
Pair
Apples and pinecones.
The dealer is in service to the players, hence tipping. The players are not serving anyone else by playing.
PhilLaFond
Straight
Been doing this for years. Seems like the right thing to do.You’re supposed to leave money for housekeeping? I can’t say that I’ve ever considered this
PhilLaFond
Straight
I just have no words...lol, smh. Whatever gets you through the night...
10% of course.
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