Tourney How to start a tournament with a weird number of people (1 Viewer)

[maloviz]

Hey PCF, last tournament I hosted I came across a sort of awkward problem at the start of the tournament and I wasn't sure what the best way to handle it would be.

The situation was this: I was hosting a 2 table tournament and was expecting ~16 players. My idea was to seat players evenly between the 2 tables at the start and we would start on time, nothing strange. Well the problem happened when 3 players flaked last minute (One player literally texting me at the start time that they're not coming) leaving us with 13 players, 5 of which were "almost there/~5 minutes away" at the start time.

This left us with 8 players that arrived on time (That I had seated 4 at each table) and more players expected to show up "soon".

I felt weird starting the tournament so short handed at each table, but I also didn't want to tell everyone to combine to 1 tables for just a few minutes. In the moment I decided the best thing to do was to wait for 10 players total to arrive and start with 5 at each table. Well the people who were "5 minutes away" ended up being more like 15-20 minutes away... So after sitting there apologizing to the players for 15m I just decided to start the clock 15m after the start time and we began with 2 tables of 4 and 5.

As expected, players started arriving a few minutes in and filled into the tables normally.

Just to note, I did have a early bird bonus that I stressed to players more than once so that something like this wouldn't happen.

My question for you guys is what would you have done in this scenario and are there any tips for a situation like this?

 

[ngmcs8203]

You’re going to have to start breaking and moving tables at some point so I would have started with 8, played until the 10th showed up and redraw for two tables of 5.

 

[maloviz]

You’re going to have to start breaking and moving tables at some point so I would have started with 8, played until the 10th showed up and redraw for two tables of 5.

I strongly considered doing exactly this. The problem was the 8 people had already gotten situated in their seats and at least 4 players were expected to show up any second. I thought it might be more disruptive to play for a few minutes, then redraw. Instead of just waiting those few minutes to start

 

[ngmcs8203]

I strongly considered doing exactly this. The problem was the 8 people had already gotten situated in their seats and at least 4 players were expected to show up any second. I thought it might be more disruptive to play for a few minutes, then redraw. Instead of just waiting those few minutes to start

Start on time and people will respect the start time. Wait for them and they’ll never show up on time.

 

[Ainton]

Start on time and people will respect the start time. Wait for them and they’ll never show up on time.

This is true

 

[maloviz]

Start on time and people will respect the start time. Wait for them and they’ll never show up on time.

Good point. I was trying to do what was best for the on time players and wasn't sure if that would be to start on time very short handed or not.

 

[BPTDirector]

Make the on time bonus bigger so that those who are late are at a definite disadvantage.

 

[maloviz]

Make the on time bonus bigger so that those who are late are at a definite disadvantage.

I was considering this for my next game. Was size do you think is appropriate?

This game it was a 10% bonus (20k + 2k on time bonus). For my next game I'm considering doing a different structure with bigger stacks and a 20% bonus (50k + 10k on time bonus).

 

[Bacon Dad]

Is there a level where they can no longer join the tournament if they get there really late?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Start on time with a table of 8. When enough latecomers show up that you're ready to split to 2 tables, pause the clock and have everyone redraw for seats.

Don't go out of your way to rub it in, but let the late players see how disruptive their tardiness is to everyone.

Also, I agree with the reply above that says to always start on time. Don't wait for late players. It gives the impression that the game doesn't start on time anyway, so why bother showing up on time?

 

[Kensco]

Gather buy-ins from your player pool well in advance of your tournament date and blind off late arrivals & no shows. It'll give you a good idea of who is serious about showing and a guaranteed prize pool to work with, and you can still accept late registrations and do early arrival bonuses

 

[maloviz]

Is there a level where they can no longer join the tournament if they get there really late?

The latest player was ~1h late, I think they joined in L4. My idea was to allow late reg up to the second break, which was also the end of rebuy. Not sure if this is too lenient though.

I want to be fair to the players that actually arrive on time and respect the structure, but also want to give a chance to play for the people that might get out of work later and want to play but know they'll be an hour late. Hard to find a good way to do both

Don't wait for late players

Yeah... I realize now that waiting was a mistake. Definitely won't do that again.

Gather buy-ins from your player pool well in advance of your tournament date

This idea isn't bad. I don't know if I could convince some of my older players to figure out how to use Cashapp, or find time to give me the cash prior to the game though lol. If I did this do you think I should only give the on-time/early bird bonus to players that actually ARRIVE on-time? or should I give it to anyone that arrived on time OR paid ahead of time?

 

[Kensco]

...


This idea isn't bad. I don't know if I could convince some of my older players to figure out how to use Cashapp, or find time to give me the cash prior to the game though lol. If I did this do you think I should only give the on-time/early bird bonus to players that actually ARRIVE on-time? or should I give it to anyone that arrived on time OR paid ahead of time?

I'd give the bonus to both on time arrivals and pre-registrations as both work toward the goal of having stacks in front of seats and starting on time. As to gathering the buy-ins up front; the theory is solid... but good luck with the practical application!

 

[ngmcs8203]

The latest player was ~1h late, I think they joined in L4. My idea was to allow late reg up to the second break, which was also the end of rebuy. Not sure if this is too lenient though.

I want to be fair to the players that actually arrive on time and respect the structure, but also want to give a chance to play for the people that might get out of work later and want to play but know they'll be an hour late. Hard to find a good way to do both

This is way too late IMHO. I think most of us go with rebuys until the first break which is usually 4-5 levels in.

 

[maloviz]

This is way too late IMHO. I think most of us go with rebuys until the first break which is usually 4-5 levels in.

I usually do 20m levels. L1-3 -> Break -> L4-6 -> Break.

So second break is ~2h in. A couple of my players are used to doing breaks insanely often from another nearby home game (5m break every 20m) so they already bitch about 1h between breaks. Do you think allowing rebuys until the first break is good? Or too short?

 

[ngmcs8203]

I think most of us do first break within the first 60-90 minutes. How many BBs do players have if they buyin at the end of the second break?

 

[ArielVer18]

When sending out invites, tell your players the event start time (preferably top of the hour) and the tournament actual start time (15 min to an hour later, your preference). This gives players time to arrive, decompress, chat, pour a drink or two, etc. Anyone who physically arrives by the tournament actual start time or pay ahead of time gets an on-time chip bonus. Prepaid players who don't arrive by tourney start time will getting blinded off. Late registration allowed up to about an hour. Anyone who arrive later than that can wait around for the cash game.

 

[krafticus]

I used to do the 2 hour mark (6 levels) for rebuys, but I removed an earlier level to move things along. I know have 1 break after 5 (20 min) levels, and end rebuys at that point.

Also, I'd go one of 2 ways. If you want to have players pre-pay for a tournament (via paypal, zelle, venmo), I think that is fine. If they pre-pay, chips go on the table and get blinded out. I'd personally worry about cash on hand (or ePayments), and what happens if a pre-paid person backs out after the event starts (it will happen).

Again, my game is more a re-entry game, so if people are coming late (99% players let me know), I don't put their chips on the table until a) they get there, or b), the rebuy level is over. I don't mind, as it isn't that difficult to manage using The Tournament Director software. Again my players know to let me know, so I try to keep my tables balanced with the on-time and late players so that we have an even number of players.

In your situation, I'd start on time, and place the players at 1 table until you get 12 players (2 tables of 6). I don't mind being as ass to player 11 and making them wait. Maybe they would start to get the hint and try to be on time. If not, people keep waiting. If you have 11 on time players, start 2 tables (heck, if you have 10, start 2 tables). You just have to really set expectations and roll with them. My game is well established now, and people know the rules and routine. Any given night, with 27-32 players, I usually get no more than 4-5 late players. 1 works until late, and always lets me know weeks in advance. Most players let me know a day or so before, or at least a few hours ahead of time.

 

[maloviz]

I think most of us do first break within the first 60-90 minutes. How many BBs do players have if they buyin at the end of the second break?

For this specific tournament it was: L6 buy in = 25bb, Late chance buy in = 16.66bb
But when creating my structures I generally try to follow the advice of keeping it between 20-25bb for the latest rebuy.

 

[maloviz]

what happens if a pre-paid person backs out after the event starts (it will happen)

This actually happened during this game. I told someone to prepay for the chip bonus, then after they did and right as the tournament was starting they said they'd be ~1.5h late... So I just took the chips off the table and said I'd refund the $20. I was not able to have to deal with someone being irate because late reg would have been a better bang for their buck chip wise.

As for your other points... Yeah.. I should have just started on time with one table. It's easy to see that now, but at the time I really thought people were just about to pull onto the street so I didn't think I'd be waiting long than a minute or 2 to start with 2 decent sized tables.

 

[buzzmonkey]

I do the end of the first break as my cutoff. So that would be the start of level 6 for my 20 minute level games and the start of level 4 for my 30 minute level games.

 

[Poker Zombie]

There could be problems if you start with 1 table and then split to 2.

I played in a tournament at the Las Vegas Sahara. They started on time with 1 table. As the Sahara is at the end of the strip with little traffic, their game could simply be 1 table. However, late arrivals continued to show, and once they had enough for 2 tables they randomly selected players to move to a second table.

Only to find out that all the randomly moved players had few to no chips of the lowest denomination. Dealers did not have racks/chips so we were left idle while they tried to remedy the issue. As stupid as it sounds, it took roughly 15 minutes to get us enough chips to play.

THerefore, my suggestion is to start at 1 full table. Late arrivals can sit if there is a seat open, First come, first served. Late arrivals have priority over rebuys. I would be nice and give them some cash game chips to pass the time, but they are banking on their own. Sorry you were late, I bet you leave earlier next time.

I give players have the option to reserve their seat via digital payment (or otherwise prepay) to guarentee their seat. If they still don't show, their chips go live at the end of the rebuy period, and their empty seat is treated as a very tight player, folding everything including their all-in when necessary.

Hosting is a effort. Don't make it more difficult by letting players make it that way. You did your job, they must do theirs.

 

[JustinInMN]

I have a method for this now. The first 10 players all draw a spot on table one upon arrival. It is predetermined that the players that draw seats 2, 4, 6, and 8 will move to table two when it opens, which happens when the 11th player arrives. Players leaving table 1 take their corresponding seat on table 2. And the 11th player will draw seat 1,3,5,or 7 on table 2. Creating 6 on table 1, 5 on table 2. The 12th player will draw from the open seat on table 2 and remaining arrivers will alternate between tables.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

If they are frequent late comers, announce your game to start half an hour early but play it at the actual start time. That way they have a 30 minute buffer and no more excuses. I would also determine a level to remove their stacks from play if they show up excessively late. They will get the hint.

 

[TexRex]

A regular game schedule helps. For years, I always did 3rd Friday. A posted schedule if it's not a regular time helps, but not as much as a particular night.

Starting on time helps. I define starting on time as by the announced starting time, players are drawing their seating chips. Usually cards are flying within 3-7 minutes of the announced starting time. 10 minutes after the announced time is unusual for us, but I don’t consider it a late start unless cards aren’t flying by 15 after the announced time. I don’t have the ideal setup for checking in, and several showing at the last minute takes extra time, even if they make it on time for the bonus (see below).

There are other things you can try that might help. What I’ve found works the best for me to help get started on time is an Early Bird Bonus. Players get a bonus chip for being there on time – 10-15 minutes before the scheduled start. That means registered and paid! The bonus chip is worth anywhere from 11-16% of the total chip stack. The tournaments are built around everyone getting the bonus as far as planning how long it will last.

Prepaid stacks do count as showing on time but do have their chip stacks blinded if not there at the start. Those blinds are removed from play. The reason for that is there are two parts to the Early Bird Bonus – [1] paying on time and [2] being on time. Paying on time (as in early) qualifies you for the bonus, but your bonus starts to leak if you aren’t there on time.

The way I blind in is when the game starts, Prepaid Registrants who aren’t there have a seat drawn for them. I keep all Prepaid Registrant stacks beside me as the Tournament Director. At the start of play, I remove a small blind and big blind from every stack. I repeat that at the start of every new round. When a Prepaid Registrant arrives, I give them their remaining chip stack and seating chip. They go take their seat.

If they aren’t a Prepaid Registrant, they get a full regular stack when they arrive, but without the Early Bird bonus. At the end of the registration period, a Prepaid Registrant whose stack has been blinded still has a bigger stack than the guy who was a minute late and didn’t get the bonus. So someone running late is better off getting the bonus but having their stack blinded.

The empty seat is ignored in that it doesn’t receive cards. A Prepaid Registrant is not yet a player until they take a hand. When the Prepaid Registrant arrives, they take their seat. If it happens to be between the SB and BB or the BB and Button, they have to wait until the button passes to receive cards.

I tried having a stack for all registered players on the table, and blinding the stacks (removing the chips from play) as the blinds arrived at the seat. That was a hassle, so we started blinding all empty seat stacks at the beginning of each round. That was a little less of a hassle, but still created extra work for tournament management. It seemed weird blinding in someone who hadn’t paid.

Then someone suggested an early or on-time bonus. That worked far better than anything else I tried. How much of a bonus is right? I found 10-20% seemed to work well.

 

[ValueTown]

Make the on time bonus bigger so that those who are late are at a definite disadvantage.

I had to do this, went from 500 chip, to 1k chip to 5K chip bonus and we start at 10K. We blind them out as well. Even considered a 10% reduction for anyone late over 30 mins.

 

[allforcharity]

A weird number of people > a number of weird people

 

[Moxie Mike]

Start on time and people will respect the start time. Wait for them and they’ll never show up on time.

Yup... eliminate or massive reduce late registration and they'll show up on time.

 

[Frogzilla]

As described I’d just play short handed 3-4 players which in my experience is fairly typical for a casino tournament. Wouldn’t delay start.

If you were expecting something like 20 players for a 9-max game and only 10 there, two tables probably makes more sense, and you can redraw to 3 tables if necessary.

 

[SPR]

Starting on time is always a good way to set expectations. Even if you don’t have a regular game, I think on time players will appreciate that. Reward the things that make it easiest for you as the host. I use the countdown timer on the software to help keep things rolling on time. On time bonus chips also work well.



I’m sure the more you host, the more you will know your players, and vice versa. But consistency is my best suggestion if you are going to host regularly. Depending on who’s coming and who’s going to be late, I’d try to start at 1 table if we are going to be too short handed. I think 4 or 5 handed may be a bit too short if I can avoid it. Again, think of those that show up on time and reward them with the best experience you can. I’ll have the additional table(s) set up and ready to go but I try not to rely on the late arrivals until they’re actually here, just in case they flake.



For late arrivals I allow 30 minutes after we start. Then registration is closed and if you are going to be later than that, we post blinds starting at the 30-minute mark. I ask the players to text me if they will be later than the 30-min but only if they are a lock to show up. It may be a lot to manage and play simultaneously but its manageable. I have a couple of regulars traveling 50/90-mile range away and that can be a LONG drive here with Bay Area traffic no matter what day of the week it is. I try to consider them when I put these things in place. I try to allow flexibility without holding up the game too much.



We typically start at 7pm on Saturday’s or 4pm for Sunday’s, and my goal is to keep it to a 3–4-hour tournament. If we have a “big” tournament with longer levels I usually extent the registration period to 1 hour for a 1pm or noon start time. I try to be as consistent as I can and make every effort to not deviate from start times. However, life happens and in the rare occasion a change is unavoidable I do my best to communicate those changes asap. This has work for me for the past 20 or so years (or at least that’s where we are now).