Aaargh (2 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

So I play in this juicy yet maddening 1/3 game 2-3 times a month. It plays big, with frequent $6 UTG or $10 button straddles. I keep going back because it has been profitable, especially now that I’ve developed pretty good reads on the regs.

The game has running high hand and bad beat jackpots, a $5 bomb pot on every dealer change, and the 7/2 game is on ($5 per player).

Anyway this week, this happened.

Four limpers. SB folds. So far there’s $16 in the pot including my big blind.

I look down in the BB at red AA.

In most games like this I’d make a standard raise of $20-$25 given all the limps.

But in this game that results in a zillion callers.

I’m sure I can get at least one caller for more, and make it $50 to go.

All four limpers call.

Five of us to the flop with $251 in the pot before rake.

Flop J♠︎9♠︎8♣︎

UTG checks, UTG +1 makes it $200.

In this game, with four callers, a middling coordinated flop like that almost always guarantees someone made two pair or a straight, and at least one other has a big draw. Possibly a double draw. I could be ahead of top pair, but the reverse implied odds are ugly.

I just muck in disgust.

Strategy question: What to do in this situation next time? Overcall for $3 and only continue on “safe” flops? Go even bigger until I find a size that gets me heads up?

Note: I asked the first caller what he thought I had, and he said that he only called because he thought my $50 raise meant I must have 72…He thought the size suggested I was trying to steal it preflop and get the $40 payout.

Several others agreed. (If they really believed that, shouldn’t someone have reraised me?)

The problem here is that the same fishy play which makes the game profitable also makes it exasperating, and requires weird adjustments. It’s often the case that limpers in this game have trouble folding… even when facing a 17x raise. Generally that’s great, except when your premium hand faces four callers.

I can’t really complain, since I cashed out for $1,665 on $700 in buyins ($500 initial plus a $200 top-off), +$965 in seven hours. But this specific spot has me perplexed as to how to handle it differently next time.

 

[inca911]

Play your game, and don’t disturb the fish (kill the 72 game).

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Yeah this is wonderful, just gotta smile. Exact type of flop you dont want to see with Aces in a multiway pot lol. It sucks but pitch them and compliment the winner.

50 is bananas high but I dont know your game. Seems incredibly polarizing and not wanting a call in most games.

 

[Taghkanic]

Play your game, and don’t disturb the fish (kill the 72 game).

I’d love to get the host to nix all the gimmicks/promotiom, but those are a big part of why the fish play.

 

[BigJackJones]

You question was "What to do..." not "What should I do" or "What would you do?"

I have no idea how to answer your actual question, and I'm not one to tell anyone what to do, but I can answer the answer the third question.

I would get irritated and shoved on the flop in protest of 4 callers. Then I would wander around for the rest of the evening (or morning), mumbling something about online poker strategy being the reason for the fall of civilization.

 

[Legend5555]

Keep doing what you're doing is what I'd say. And a $5 7-2 bounty isn't big enough given how big this game plays to even be trying to win that.

 

[Taghkanic]

Keep doing what you're doing is what I'd say. And a $5 7-2 bounty isn't big enough given how big this game plays to even be trying to win that.

I agree. The bounty is so trivial that didn’t occur to me that my bet would be read as such.

But I have noticed that people in this game will commit 20-200 BB trying to secure that measly $40. So it’s one more thing to add to the profiles.

In theory huge preflop raises in this game should probably only be made with JJ+ and AKs… Then once the table recognizes that habit, add back in 72.

Then, again, I am constantly shocked at how little and what shallow thinking is going on besides people looking at their own hands. When I hear people discussing hands at the table, it’s pretty incredible. I have to remember not to make meta-plays against villains who are not tracking your past moves or ranges at all.

 

[warma]

The thrill of winning with 72 is much greater than any bounty.

 

[Kain8]

If that many players are adamant that huge preflop raises must equal 72o, I'd be opening even higher next time with JJ+ and AKss. This is of course only in the circumstances like yours where there's a decent amount of dead money already in the pot. But even if you're first to open, I'd be putting out a pretty significant initial raise with any top tier hand.

Until these regs lose the 72o bounty (seriously, $5, or 1.66 BB only?) you have damn near impunity to continue doing this over and over. Because they'll never adjust their paradigm to acquiesce in the face of large preflop bets. Clearly calling down with bad holdings for potentially hundreds of dollars is a lot better than surrendering a $5 chip to the bounty winner, according to them.

 

[jpoppaaa]

Nothing to do. Raise again when you get the pocket aces and when the flop misses collect your money. My home game is the same way. But your still winning 75% of these situations although the other 25% is maddening.

 

[Taghkanic]

Nothing to do. Raise again when you get the pocket aces and when the flop misses collect your money. My home game is the same way. But your still winning 75% of these situations although the other 25% is maddening.

Against four callers, with calling ranges between 20%-50% of the deck, I think I’m more like 55% to win on random flops.

I guess if I lead out with a modest Cbet size (say, $80) it doesn’t have to work very often, and this field is likely to play pretty face up… though they think I only have 72.

I guess it depends even more than usual on the flop texture multi-way. But it would have to be either Axx or very, very dry for me to lead into four callers.

I dunno. I’m starting to think suited connectors have more value against this type of field than high pairs…

 

[jpoppaaa]

Against four callers, with calling ranges between 20%-50% of the deck, I think I’m more like 55% to win on random flops.

I guess if I lead out with a modest Cbet size (say, $80) it doesn’t have to work very often, and this field is likely to play pretty face up… though they think I only have 72.

I guess it depends even more than usuu ital on the flop texture multi-way. But it would have to be either Axx or very, very dry for me to lead into four callers.

I dunno. I’m starting to think suited connectors have more value against this type of field than high pairs…

I’d agree on the suited connectors. And in my home game at least, their calling range is like 75%. They’ll pay almost anything to see the flop.

Just wait until you go back to a more “normal” game. Lol you definitely learn some bad habits playing like this.

 

[Legend5555]

I dunno. I’m starting to think suited connectors have more value against this type of field than high pairs…

That highly depends on the SPR going to the flop. 4+ ways, the low suited connectors actually don't fair all that well at low and very high SPRs. Too low, and you just aren't flopping enough equity often enough, too high and the risk of being overflushed, over straighted, and out two paired becomes a serious risk.

This is why at very high SPRs, you see people like Mariano 3 bet suited connectors so often. It's better to go heads up with them.

When you get to 4+ ways, you are handcuffed into playing pretty straightforward with minimal bluffing. And that's fine because people in those types of games just play so poorly anyway.

3 ways, you can actually expotatively bet over pairs on some "bad boards" like 89T because a lot of players aren't going to semibluff raise you often enough to punish you for doing so. They will just call with their draws and raise their two pair+ hands. 4+ ways though, this becomes harder to do because it becomes to likely you get multiple callers or that someone will raise. And while you might still be +EV by betting, your visibility on later streets becomes poor.

 

[floeICE]

Keep raising huge with value and accept the variance. You got a bad flop out of position. Doesn’t matter how good your hand is, your equity is less than 50% 5 ways and you are out of position.

And if you think they can big bet with top pair or a draw, you have to call the flop with AA, especially if you close the action and can get a heads up turn. If you don’t call with AA on this flop, what hands are you calling with? JJ only? KQs? You don’t have hands to defend.

If you’re going to play fit or fold on the flop with Aces, then you’re better off limping.

 

[Taghkanic]

Keep raising huge with value and accept the variance. You got a bad flop out of position. Doesn’t matter how good your hand is, your equity is less than 50% 5 ways and you are out of position.

And if you think they can big bet with top pair or a draw, you have to call the flop with AA, especially if you close the action and can get a heads up turn. If you don’t call with AA on this flop, what hands are you calling with? JJ only? KQs? You don’t have hands to defend.

If you’re going to play fit or fold on the flop with Aces, then you’re better off limping.

The flip side of your point is that if you have zero folding range on the flop with AA, you also are exploitable...

Yes, playing fit-or-fold heads up with AA would be bad most of the time.

Fiveway, with someone betting roughly potsize on the flop into four others? I can definitely get away from that on certain board textures.

 

[loosechange101]

Keep raising huge with value and accept the variance. You got a bad flop out of position. Doesn’t matter how good your hand is, your equity is less than 50% 5 ways and you are out of position.

And if you think they can big bet with top pair or a draw, you have to call the flop with AA, especially if you close the action and can get a heads up turn. If you don’t call with AA on this flop, what hands are you calling with? JJ only? KQs? You don’t have hands to defend.

If you’re going to play fit or fold on the flop with Aces, then you’re better off limping.

I'm just another nobody on the internet but I agree with this. If they call, just keep raising. You only need to adjust down if you consistently don't get called.

In games with less experienced players, and especially those I don't know well, I'll just keep raising my raise amount until I'm happy with the number of callers (1 or 2). "Accept the variance" is an absolute in poker, especially if you play often.

 

[Taghkanic]

Blasting away blindly without paying attention to other players’ bet sizes, the board texture, their likely ranges, the previous action, player profiles, etc. just isn’t my game.

I don't often see many 1/3 players raising out of position into the preflop aggressor who made it 16BB, needing their flop bet to get through four people on a coordinated board.

If I call the $200 anyway, what am I hoping he has? If the board had been less coordinated, I could have called the $200 bet or reraised. J98 twotone? He has two pair or better. Or a double draw. Or at the very worst has an open-ender and I’m just flipping. I don’t even have any backdoors.

Yeah, I’m beating KK, QQ, AJ, KQ, QJ, TJ, any other Tx. But I don't see this player pool making that play with those hands, unless they also have a flush draw (and their aren't many combos of those given the is on the board already.

I think my future play here is to keep going bigger and bigger with monsters preflop, until I identify the rough size that gets my premium hands heads-up most often. And also do the same thing a small percentage of the time with some balancing hands like JTs, A5s, etc.

 

[loosechange101]

I realize how my reply might have been ambiguous. I didn't mean that you should call his raise postflop. I meant that you should increase your pre-flop amount until you hit an amount where you don't get 4 callers.

Like what you said here:

I think my future play here is to keep going bigger and bigger with monsters preflop, until I identify the rough size that gets my premium hands heads-up most often. And also do the same thing a small percentage of the time with some balancing hands like JTs, A5s, etc.

If they are calling your $50 raises in the situation you described, you just go higher (next time). In the extreme case, basically nothing wrong with getting in all in preflop with AA or even KK against loose players.

As long as they keep calling, you keep raising huge preflop. Don't fix what ain't broke...

I completely agree that once you get that kind of flop, you're just gonna have to sigh and let go of the hand.

 

[Frogzilla]

Strategy question: What to do in this situation next time? Overcall for $3 and only continue on “safe” flops? Go even bigger until I find a size that gets me heads up?

I think play it exactly the same next time, no adjustments. Multi-way is more variance but very profitable if you do it right. IMO you are absolutely right to fold flop. Multi-way you split defense freqs with the other players. You get to fold a ton on this board.

You want to be IP more so be playing almost all VPIP from blinds as squeeze, for big, with a value heavy range. AA is in there. I would not go any bigger. This was just $3 limps right, no straddle? Opening to $50 is plenty big. The more the merrier.

 

[KHarp1]

Find a game that doesn't incentivize (?) degenerate gambling by rewarding chasing terrible hands, as in 7-2. Otherwise, you get bingo players that just like the rush of gambling, no matter what the game.

 

[Taghkanic]

Find a game that doesn't incentivize (?) degenerate gambling by rewarding chasing terrible hands, as in 7-2. Otherwise, you get bingo players that just like the rush of gambling, no matter what the game.

I don’t allow stuff like 7/2 or bomb pots in my own game, but it’s hard to find other private games in my area that don’t feature these gimmicks.

Overall though I think they have long-term value for thinking players in that the gimmicks are like catnip to bad players, and keep them coming back.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

The problem here is that the same fishy play which makes the game profitable also makes it exasperating, and requires weird adjustments. It’s often the case that limpers in this game have trouble folding… even when facing a 17x raise. Generally that’s great, except when your premium hand faces four callers.

I play in a very similar .25/.50 game most weeks. I find that I do best when I have a very value-heavy 2! and 3! range preflop, and when I size my bets much larger than I would in a typical game. The limpers still call, but I'm generally getting more money in when I'm ahead, and most players tell me right away when they outflop me.

I don't often see many 1/3 players raising out of position into the preflop aggressor who made it 16BB, needing their flop bet to get through four people on a coordinated board.

There are a couple guys in my game who can get tricky like this with draws, a few who will donk with top pair no matter the texture, and a few where this only means they can beat one pair.

Against the latter, I've folded big PPs to a flop donk bet many, many times.