Tourney When Can a Player at the Table Ask to See Your Cards Before You Muck Them? (1 Viewer)

[BGinGA]

This is something I've been thinking about lately myself for different reasons. On Poker Stars when you get to a showdown, if you have the winning hand, it seems that there are some strange situations where the loser has the option to not show their hand even though it went to showdown. Could someone explain this to me? I've always felt like there has to be an easy explanation but its just eluding me.

In a pstars showdown, a player's hand will only be shown to the table if it is currently winning, as hands are evaluated in turn around the table. So if SB has two pair, his hand will be shown, but if BB can't beat it, his hand will not be shown. As 'showdown' goes around the table, only hands that are higher than the previous best hand will be revealed. If nobody has a hand better than the first one shown, no additional cards will be revealed at the table.

But all of the hands in play at showdown can be viewd by clicking hand replay or by checking the hand history.

 

[LotsOfChips]

On a slightly different note. if a player calls a river bet and then shows before the aggressor tables his cards, can the caller legitimately ask to see the bettor's cards? I suspect that this is legal, but is it frowned upon? (Or should I learn to wait until he shows his cards before I show mine?)

 

[Mr Winberg]

Or should I learn to wait until he shows his cards before I show mine?

Based on some heated threads I've read, that topic belongs in this list:

On PCF you get many debates:

• NAGB - Good or Bad for chipping
• KEM cards - Best cards ever, or warped overpriced garbage
• High-end plastics - Excellent option, or too slippery to waste money on
• Online poker - Game-on or rigged chipless dashboards and bots
• Chip flipping - Entrepreneurial excellence, or pillaging the community
• Shuffle ahead, shuffle behind, pay for dealers, or use dedicated dealers
• Hot Dog = / <> a Sandwich?
• When is too soon to play poker in the COVID world?
• Over/Under on @CraigT78 's meetup beer consumption

...and all that without even peeking into the "politics" subforum.

Yet there is 100% agreement - you never get to pull a properly folded hand out of the muck.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Or should I learn to wait until he shows his cards before I show mine?

I think it depends on your past experiences. If you usually play with players with good etiquette, then show if you think you have the winner.

On the other hand, if this has happened to you a gazillion times:

Villain bets
Hero calls
Villain shows a paired ace and says "You probably got me"
Hero shows a paired ace with a jack kicker.
Villain shows his queen kicker...

... then you'll do like me: don't move a muscle and just stair at him until he either shows or discards his cards, even if it takes all night!

 

[WedgeRock]

...another reason why games need good dealers. I'm assuming it was self-dealt, but the dealer needs a bit of a talking to, too.

My first thought was, "here goes @Gobbs on a 'good dealer' rant again."

My second thought was, "he's right."

My third thought was, he said "good dealers" not "dedicated dealers."

OP, I think you got the answer on the ruling. I'm wondering what happened and what the punishment was. Some may say just a warning, some may say an orbit penalty. I would say light the guy's face on fire and put it out with a hammer.

Actually, I hope he later looked you up because he saw the bluff you folded and this time, you had the goods and took all his monies.

 

[LotsOfChips]

I think it depends on your past experiences. If you usually play with players with good etiquette, then show if you think you have the winner.

My first thought is usually to move the game along, so if I have a strong hand my instinct is to show it as soon as the betting is finished. Then my second thought occurs, which is that I paid to see the other player's cards, and having the information would be useful for future use. So far I haven't asked to see, but I'm not sure what the etiquette is (the rules seem to suggest that it is within my rights).

 

[BGinGA]

By the basics of the rules if both hands made it to a showdown then anyone at the table could ask to see the hand even if mucked. This is really bad etiquete but allowable by the rules.

I've always understood it as Robert's Rules version. Anyone dealt in has the right to see any hand that went to showdown.

Noteworthy to mention that although still allowed by RROP, the TDA rules no longer allow players without live cards to request to see another player's hand.

See post #4 above. Players lose the right to see (or ask to see) another player's cards once they fold their own hand.

 

[Mr Winberg]

My first thought is usually to move the game along, so if I have a strong hand my instinct is to show it as soon as the betting is finished. Then my second thought occurs, which is that I paid to see the other player's cards, and having the information would be useful for future use. So far I haven't asked to see, but I'm not sure what the etiquette is (the rules seem to suggest that it is within my rights).

It's your right to see. The etiquette is that if someone wants to avoid showing a bluff, it's a nice gesture of you to show once he starts hesitating.
If he is a scumbag known to try to get others to show first to get info, then IMO you should never ever show first.

Here's another classic:
Villain: i got nothing
Hero shows forth pair saying "I got a bit more than nothing"
Villain: Oh! Well I do have third pair, but I thought it was no good!

 

[WedgeRock]

There is a local that does not show as the aggressor when he's weakish...but sometimes, he wins with weakish holdings. Most often tho, he folds without showing. He rarely tables his hand. He's not an asshole, he's just cognizant of protecting his information.

If I'm in a hand with him and he's the aggressor, I won't show until he does (which is usually only a few seconds of awkward pause, because he knows he has to show). Anyone else at the table, if I think I have the winner, I'll show regardless of who is the aggressor.

 

[BGinGA]

It's your right to see. The etiquette is that if someone wants to avoid showing a bluff, it's a nice gesture of you to show once he starts hesitating.
If he is a scumbag known to try to get others to show first to get info, then IMO you should never ever show first.

Here's another classic:
Villain: i got nothing
Hero shows forth pair saying "I got a bit more than nothing"
Villain: Oh! Well I do have third pair, but I thought it was no good!

My version as Hero:

Villain: i got nothing
Hero: So you're folding?
Villain: No, not yet.
Hero: Action's on you. Must show all cards to win the pot.

 

[WedgeRock]

My version as Hero:

Villain: i got nothing
Hero: So you're folding?
Villain: No, not yet.
Hero: Action's on you. Must show all cards to win the pot.

As an added bonus, forcing this person to show may change his propensity to bluff river.

 

[pokerplayingpisces]

I mentioned this yesterday in a different thread. I was playing in a tournament and check-raised - fold to re-raise. Not the best play I know. I was stealing and got caught. The player to my right demanded to see my cards. He was not in the hand and I tossed them in the muck. He pulled them out and showed everyone. What's the rule?

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Come on OP tell us what happened!

 

[Mr Winberg]

My version as Hero:

Villain: i got nothing
Hero: So you're folding?
Villain: No, not yet.
Hero: Action's on you. Must show all cards to win the pot.

Yes, that's pretty much what I do nowadays. You know...fool me 67 times, shame on you. Fool me 68 times, shame on me!!

But my experience is that the point is hammered home more effectively with a devastating silence:

do like me: don't move a muscle and just stair at him until he either shows or discards his cards, even if it takes all night!

Once I even got pressured by the villain to "stop waisting time", so I took my phone out, started an episode of Friends and asked the table to let me know when he had acted.

 

[Thomacetti]

This solved a lot of issues in our game

 

[GimmieUChips]

Sorry to go dark... BTW when I said "you can't do that" he said, "Yes I can sweetie" Two guys grabbed me! lol I'm serious! Never meet the dude and he called me "sweetie". I will make another post on that topic.

This was sent to both me and the guy the next day from (JLD) that wanted to see my hand.

Robert's rules of poker are available online here. <---- You can click that link.

Under Section 3 - General Poker Rules: The Showdown

it says

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.


Leonard

In other words, he can ask, but it's really bad form. Another BTW...we ended up being friends to this day.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Sorry to go dark... BTW when I said "you can't do that" he said, "Yes I can sweetie" Two guys grabbed me! lol I'm serious! Never meet the dude and he called me "sweetie". I will make another post on that topic.

This was sent to both me and the guy the next day from (JLD) that wanted to see my hand.

Robert's rules of poker are available online here. <---- You can click that link.

Under Section 3 - General Poker Rules: The Showdown

it says

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.


Leonard

In other words, he can ask, but it's really bad form. Another BTW...we ended up being friends to this day.

You weren’t eligible to participate in the showdown since you folded to the raise. He had ZERO right to see your cards.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

And here is Rule 18 from the TDA Rules.

18: Asking to See a Hand
A: Players not still in possession of cards at showdown, or who have mucked their cards face down without tabling, lose any rights or privileges to ask to see any hand.
B: If there was a river bet, any caller has an inalienable right to have the last aggressor’s hand tabled on request (“the hand they paid to see”) provided the caller tabled or retains his or her cards. TDs discretion governs all other requests such as to see the hand of another caller, or if there was no river bet. See Illustration Addendum [adopted 2013].

 

[GimmieUChips]

If they are a jerk, I don't show until they show the loser...Then I get called for "slow-rolling" when I didn't know if I had won! lol

 

[tabletalker7]

Under Section 3 - General Poker Rules: The Showdown

it says

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

As you said here, THAT WAS ELIGIBLE FOR SHOWDOWN. You folded to a raise. You were not eligible for showdown. That man was not your friend. He screwed you over and the rest of the group let him do it. If all someone has to do to completely screw you is call you "sweetie" life is going to be extremely difficult for you. Wake up and realize what that group did to you. They are not your friends.

 

[TheBigTater]

Obvious point here is that your hand was not eligible for showdown, therefore they are using the rule incorrectly and/or they are trying to cheat you. Either way that would be the last time I played in that game or with that group of players..

 

[BPTDirector]

After I punched the asshole out that fished my cards out of the muck I’d make sure he never played another hand at my house again. No excuses are valid. If it wasn’t at showdown it’s none of your fucking business. I personally hate the show em and rabbit hunting things in games.

 

[upNdown]

In a pstars showdown, a player's hand will only be shown to the table if it is currently winning, as hands are evaluated in turn around the table.

Wow. Of all the hands I've played on pokerstars, and I hadn't figured that out.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Sorry to go dark... BTW when I said "you can't do that" he said, "Yes I can sweetie" Two guys grabbed me! lol I'm serious! Never meet the dude and he called me "sweetie". I will make another post on that topic.

This was sent to both me and the guy the next day from (JLD) that wanted to see my hand.

Robert's rules of poker are available online here. <---- You can click that link.

Under Section 3 - General Poker Rules: The Showdown

it says

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.


Leonard

In other words, he can ask, but it's really bad form. Another BTW...we ended up being friends to this day.

Ok. Something doesn’t pass the smell test here. Do you and your friends not understand what a showdown is?

 

[upNdown]

Ok. Something doesn’t pass the smell test here. Do you and your friends not understand what a showdown is?

I don't know if it's a smell test issue. I can see how somebody could think, well he WAS eligible for showdown - all he had to do was call. It's a stupid argument, but only one guy has to misunderstand it that way. Then it becomes a house rule and everybody accepts it. IT'S COMPLETELY STUPID. But it wouldn't be the dumbest house rule I've ever heard. Far from it, sadly.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Sorry to go dark... BTW when I said "you can't do that" he said, "Yes I can sweetie" Two guys grabbed me! lol I'm serious! Never meet the dude and he called me "sweetie". I will make another post on that topic.

This was sent to both me and the guy the next day from (JLD) that wanted to see my hand.

Robert's rules of poker are available online here. <---- You can click that link.

Under Section 3 - General Poker Rules: The Showdown

it says

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.


Leonard

In other words, he can ask, but it's really bad form. Another BTW...we ended up being friends to this day.

+1 on what everyone else is saying: Your hand wasn't eligible for showdown (since you folded), so the rule doesn't apply. Whenever you action is FOLD (either by saying fold or by discarding when you've been bet into), then you are not eligible for showdown. If it goes check-check, or one has bet and the other called, then both hands are eligible for showdown and the rule applies.

Regarding what to do: There's a lot of talk about violence, and while I understand it I wouldn't take that route myself (although it would be quite funny to show up at his door after all this time has passed and punch him in the mouth and say "remember that hand...!?"). What I would do is hit "reply all" on that email and link to this thread, so that they learn about the rule and all the beatings that are wished upon them!

 

[TheBigTater]

I find the show em' chips rather annoying. If a game chooses to use them I may or may not play. If they are expensive enough (ie: $20 or so really depends on the stakes) and the victim gets all the money then I can tolerate them. They need to come at a high price for the user becuase they go against the basic tenets of poker, that "you need to pay to see the cards"

 

[Poker Zombie]

I find the show em' chips rather annoying. If a game chooses to use them I may or may not play. If they are expensive enough (ie: $20 or so really depends on the stakes) and the victim gets all the money then I can tolerate them. They need to come at a high price for the user becuase they go against the basic tenets of poker, that "you need to pay to see the cards"

I've never used them, but I could see their value in a very social game, or in a game where you have a mix of poor players and good players. The show'em chips may actually help the poor players a bit, and teaching the fish to play better is good for the game in the long run.

The reason I don't use them, is because the good players can reap far more information from seeing their opponents cards than the poor player ever will, and I can't offer the chip to only a limited number of players.

 

[Gobbs]

Sorry to go dark... BTW when I said "you can't do that" he said, "Yes I can sweetie" Two guys grabbed me! lol I'm serious! Never meet the dude and he called me "sweetie". I will make another post on that topic.

This was sent to both me and the guy the next day from (JLD) that wanted to see my hand.

Robert's rules of poker are available online here. <---- You can click that link.

Under Section 3 - General Poker Rules: The Showdown

it says

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.


Leonard

In other words, he can ask, but it's really bad form. Another BTW...we ended up being friends to this day.

The simple response to this email is to simply say "What Showdown?" and see if they catch on....

 

[GimmieUChips]

After I punched the asshole out that fished my cards out of the muck I’d make sure he never played another hand at my house again. No excuses are valid. If it wasn’t at showdown it’s none of your fucking business. I personally hate the show em and rabbit hunting things in games.

I try to NEVER SHOW if possible. EVER!