• PCF is an eBay Partner. If you make a purchase through one of our links, we may earn a commission at no extra cost to you. Thank you for your support!

Cash Game Protect new players, or let them learn the hard way? (2 Viewers)

Easiest way is flipping over a hand before acting makes it dead (unless they were last to act then its a check).

Prevents clowns not in a hand from yelling "easy call or easy fold" and prevents others from flipping over their hand prematurely.
 
I just want to say, this is the first issue we’ve had with Reggie. He’s always been fun at the table, win or lose. I think he may have been a little drunk, which I’m sure contributed. It was just a perfect storm where he faced a big decision against a new player who didn’t know what was happening. Again, that kind of stuff happens several times a night between experienced players, and has never been an issue.

My guess is it will be brought up, and he will be cool about it. I’ll update if I have more to tell.
 
I don't think that people crapping on Reggie are correct here. By the sounds of things, I think that he did what was more or less normal for that particular game.

I think that there is definitely a learning opportunity here for Newman, and as I mentioned before, it would be good for someone to point out to him the importance of asking if the action by the other player represents a call or a fold.

Lastly, I think that you handled this well.
 
Beakertwang said:
I just want to say, this is the first issue we’ve had with Reggie. He’s always been fun at the table, win or lose. I think he may have been a little drunk, which I’m sure contributed. It was just a perfect storm where he faced a big decision against a new player who didn’t know what was happening. Again, that kind of stuff happens several times a night between experienced players, and has never been an issue.

My guess is it will be brought up, and he will be cool about it. I’ll update if I have more to tell.
Click to expand...
Okay, I am not going to dig in in my KITN suggestion in that case. Hopefully he's receptive to where you are coming from that it's just bad business to try and exploit a player that's just learning through confusion.
 
MC_CPA said:
Easiest way is flipping over a hand before acting makes it dead (unless they were last to act then its a check).

Prevents clowns not in a hand from yelling "easy call or easy fold" and prevents others from flipping over their hand prematurely.
Click to expand...
This. I personally hate that showing a hand before committing to an action is allowed at any game. I think it's really sh*tty behavior.

OP, let me tell you a story from the weekend. I was at my bachelor party and playing a $.25/.50 cash game with my boys, one of whom is my soon-to-be brother in law.

In his second hand of poker ever, he got Aces cracked by my buddy's 2/5o, who made a full house on the river.

The very next hand, he was heads up with me. I had AQ. I flopped 2-pair, and turned a full house.

I deliberately over-played my hand and went all-in on the turn, hoping he would just fold. When I could tell he was considering a call, I said to him, "Look, you're new at this and I don't want you to go broke twice. I promise you, I have you beat."

He folded. I showed. I kept the peace.

People are more important than profit in home games.
 
Preditor said:
This. I personally hate that showing a hand before committing to an action is allowed at any game.
Click to expand...

I pretty much agree with this so much so that if someone turns their cards over in my game I instantly announce that they have not called or folded, so don’t reveal your hand to the other player. It doesn’t happen often, but now when it does the player doing it usually announces themselves they are going to do it before it happens so the rest of the table doesn’t think they are angle shooting.
 
Love most of the answers and agree, protect the new players. I want my game as welcoming as possible.

@Rhodeman77 completely agreed. @Preditor , we sometimes flip cards for a few reasons. 1. to get a read (very rarely), but mostly 2. to give everyone else something to do while we tank. Just kind of my payment if I'm going to take a minute or two on a decision I give everyone else a chance to see what I'm weighing.

And it gives @ChipFinderSK a chance to tell me "you had a low you idiot" after I folded.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Love most of the answers and agree, protect the new players. I want my game as welcoming as possible.

@Rhodeman77 completely agreed. @Preditor , we sometimes flip cards for a few reasons. 1. to get a read (very rarely), but mostly 2. to give everyone else something to do while we tank. Just kind of my payment if I'm going to take a minute or two on a decision I give everyone else a chance to see what I'm weighing.

And it gives @ChipFinderSK a chance to tell me "you had a low you idiot" after I folded.
Click to expand...
You must have me confused with someone who plays hi/lo games. Idiot
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Love most of the answers and agree, protect the new players. I want my game as welcoming as possible.

@Rhodeman77 completely agreed. @Preditor , we sometimes flip cards for a few reasons. 1. to get a read (very rarely), but mostly 2. to give everyone else something to do while we tank. Just kind of my payment if I'm going to take a minute or two on a decision I give everyone else a chance to see what I'm weighing.

And it gives @ChipFinderSK a chance to tell me "you had a low you idiot" after I folded.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. Everyone knows what it is like to be in a difficult decision. I don't think turning your cards over helps.

And whatever gain there may be, I think it is incredibly disadvantageous to the player who has a lot of money staked.

By all means, tell them what you have heads up; but I think showing your cards should always be dead hand.
 
Preditor said:
I disagree with this. Everyone knows what it is like to be in a difficult decision. I don't think turning your cards over helps.

And whatever gain there may be, I think it is incredibly disadvantageous to the player who has a lot of money staked.

By all means, tell them what you have heads up; but I think showing your cards should always be dead hand.
Click to expand...
Sure, fine to disagree but why? Let's hand wave it, friendly game where everyone is a competent player, PCF Meetup. You think its incredibly disadvantageous heads up, for the player who bet to see my cards? Is incredibly disadvantageous an exxageration? If you're a competent player you can focus on the board and not have a pulse race. Especially when its heads up and I'm already talking through a decision, who cares if my cards are on their backs? There's no guile here.

So I can tell him I have two pair on a scary board, but I can't show him? Why is that very different in your mind? Or is this just to protect a brand new player?

I completely agree many times it can be an angle, I never want them to be confused about actual action and work hard to protect that. Promise this isn't an entrenched position for me, just hadn't thought about it much. I'm willing to change but usually ends with "you played that wrong".
 
Last edited:
NotRealNameNoSir said:
I completely agree many times it can be an angle
Click to expand...
We can disagree, and that is totally fine.

Fundamentally, I feel allowing this is antithetical to what makes Texas Hold'Em so great.

The skill of poker comes from needing to make decisions based on incomplete information. Part of poker is the guessing game; always asking "do I have my read on my opponent right?" This also applies to those waiting for their opponent to respond to their action, IMO.

When a player shows their cards in an active hand, it takes away that guessing game. It now becomes a game of responding to complete information. To me, that is fundamentally antithetical to the game.
 
You absolutely did the right thing. The game health argument alone makes it obvious: a new player who gets angled out of a pot while confused about what's happening is a player who doesn't come back. And that hurts everyone at the table, including Reggie.

There's also a useful distinction between speech play between equals and speech play against someone who doesn't understand what's happening. Reggie trying to talk another experienced player into a bad call is poker. Reggie offering $25 to a guy who doesn't understand what "show a card" means is something else. The fact that Newman thought Reggie was folding and the $25 was a courtesy payment to see a card — that tells you everything you need to know about the power dynamic in that hand. It wasn't a fair fight.

Reggie being annoyed in the moment is understandable, but I'd bet he knows you made the right call. A good home game lives and dies on the willingness of the host to protect the culture. If new players routinely get confused and burned while regulars stand by watching, word gets around.
 
Yeah this isn't really close reg clearly trying to take advantage of a new player, nothing wrong with protecting a new player from getting angled in a home game
 
The Reg I suppose is within his rights, but it feels shitty.

Good hosts are always trying to find new players and expand the roster, to keep the game going.Bitter regs who try to haze newbies or take advantage of them are taking for granted that there will always be a game, and forgetting that new blood keeps it going.

I had a player a few years who always seemed to feel the need to target, belittle and antagonize anyone new. I asked him (off-felt) him why he did this, and told him it made my job much harder as a host to keep the game going. Plus I pointed out that he was a winning player in my group—so why chase away more action?

He claimed that ragging on and annoying newbies was “just part of his game” because it threw them off balance and caused them to make bad decisions when they were in hands with him.

Eventually his habit of being a dick to newbies, combined with other antisocial behavior, led to the reg getting disinvited. After that I found it much easier to retain new players.
 
Last edited:
Beakertwang said:
Our local home game is a fairly splashy 1/1 NLHE, (buy-ins of $100-200, with basically no cap for rebuys later). We have a pretty good mix of experienced regs, and some guys who show up occasionally.

Thursday evening, there was a situation between an experienced player, and a very inexperienced new guy. "Reggie the Reg" is in his 50's with plenty of disposable income (will often be in for $1000+), and lots of experience playing live poker. He's generally great to have in the game, both socially and for action. "Newman the Newb" is mid-20's, and has only played in our game a handful of times. I'm not sure if he had ever played live poker before joining us. Very passive in general, sometimes doesn't pay attention to the action, still not sure of rules or etiquette, but very pleasant. He has lost a few buy-ins the couple times I've played with him, but tonight he's up a little.

Reggie and Newman are in a hand, about $200 in the pot and Newman jams on the river for ~$100. Reggie goes into the tank, and is talking, as he often does in this situation. He offers Newman $5 to show a card, but Newman is confused. He then says "will you show a card for $25", to which Newman says yes, but still seems unsure what is happening. Reggie throws him a $25 chip, but Newman looks around questioningly. We explained that Reggie wants him to turn one of his cards over for info, but Newman thought he meant he was folding and the was paying just to see the one card. We explain that he doesn't have to show, and can return the chip to Reggie, who is a bit bugged, because they had a "gentlemen's agreement" and we interfered. We told Reggie that he clearly didn't understand what's going on, and to let it go.

After some more tanking, Reggie turns over his cards to try to get a reaction. Again confused, Newman begins to turn his cards over, thinking Reggie had called. Our host who was sitting near Newman, said no, and physically stopped him from turning over his cards. We had to explain what was happening to Newman. At this point, Reggie is pissed at us for interfering, but we told him for the sake of the game, it's better for us to protect the new player. Reggie eventually folded, and Newman showed his hand, which was a better flush than Reggie's. He complained a little bit more, but didn't push back too hard.

Obviously, at a casino, it would be different, but did we do right by inserting ourselves in the interaction? Did Reggie have a right to be pissed?
Click to expand...
Easy one...fuck angle shooters.
Any one at that table should be helping out the Newb and warning should go out from host to Reggie.

I'm all for shit 'n giggle poker during home & meet-up games...but in a casino or competitve table setting, this is a no go...no exceptions.
We don't need more angle shooters, speech players, and the lot...we need less of that shit in poker.
 
Protect them until it gets annoying, then warn them that the training wheels are off (while hinting that this day would come all along)
 
Beakertwang said:
Obviously, at a casino, it would be different, but did we do right by inserting ourselves in the interaction? Did Reggie have a right to be pissed?
Click to expand...
I would say, even at a casino, it wouldn't be out of line to tell Newman what's going on and stop him from turning his hand over. I don't think Reggie was out of order at first when asking to see a card, but to get annoyed, and then proceed to do antics that I don't like to see at the table anyway (turning his hand over), then it crosses a line.
 
Update:

Reggie played last week. He was doing some good-natured complaining about a string of bad luck, and added how he had an agreement with Newman to show a card, but we stepped in.

The host and I pushed back on it, mostly me, and Mike let it go. Again, he’s generally pleasant to be around, win or lose, and even his complaining was somewhat jovial. I’m sure that will be the end of the Reggie v Newman saga.

As an aside, the host doubts we’ll see Newman again. He lost $1000 in three nights, and it seems his family told him that he has to knock it off.
 
Poker is hard enough for new players without getting angled. I would shut that shit down at my game if it happened. Glad you did.

Reggie will win plenty from Newman without the angles.

As you experienced, Newman got skinned instead of sheared and now is gone forever.
 
And by the way I only consider it an angle because Newman don’t know what was happening. Would not be an angle to an experienced player. But a host must protect inexperienced players from non standard actions. New players will have to learn how to play the cards without help though. Still have to maintain OPTAH.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Register

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Similar threads

Mojo1312
Cash Game Pros versus Downsides to $2/$4 Pot Limit
Replies
13
Views
222
acezag
acezag
OGsandals
Sentimental Card Protector Stories
Replies
4
Views
408
OGsandals
OGsandals
sleepyhead
Tourney 11-person tournament. Two tables or one?
Replies
6
Views
393
Jaxen
Jaxen
Dodger
TRK’s in the Family
Replies
0
Views
204
Dodger
Dodger
Preditor
Did I make the right call here as a dealer?
2 3
Replies
70
Views
2K
WedgeRock
WedgeRock
Back
Top Bottom