Tourney When Can a Player at the Table Ask to See Your Cards Before You Muck Them?

GimmieUChips

Sitting Out
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Messages
35
Reaction score
25
Location
Dallas, TX
I mentioned this yesterday in a different thread. I was playing in a tournament and check-raised - fold to re-raise. Not the best play I know. I was stealing and got caught. The player to my right demanded to see my cards. He was not in the hand and I tossed them in the muck. He pulled them out and showed everyone. What's the rule?
 

GianThaMan

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2020
Messages
2,078
Reaction score
2,757
Location
New York
Usually, that's not allowed, but certain games have "Show'em" buttons, where a person can force you to show your cards one time, but it appears that wasn't in play here. So grabbing your cards and looking at them is not allowed.
 

DoubleEagle

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
4,304
Reaction score
6,081
Location
Salina, KS
From TDA

18: Asking to See a Hand


A: Players not still in possession of cards at showdown, or who have mucked their cards face down without tabling, lose any rights or privileges to ask to see any hand.

B: If there was a river bet, any caller has an inalienable right to see the last aggressor’s hand on request (“the hand he paid to see”) provided the caller retains or has tabled his cards. TDs discretion governs all other requests such as to see the hand of another caller, or if there was no river bet. See Illustration Addendum [adopted 2013].

Rule 18: Asking to See a Hand

Example 1:
NLHE. 3 players remain in the hand. There is no betting on the river and no player is all-in. At showdown Player A mucks his cards face down and they are pushed into the muck by the dealer. B tables his hand, showing trips. C pushes his cards forward face-down. B may ask to see C’s hand because B has tabled his cards. However, B’s request is at TDs discretion; B has no inalienable right to see it because there was no bet on the river thus he did not “pay to see C’s hand.” Neither A nor C may ask to see a competitor’s hand because they have neither tabled their cards nor retained them.

Example 2: NLHE. 4 players remain in the hand. On the river A bets 1000, B calls, C raises to 5000, and D, A and B all call. No player is all-in. B tables his hand, showing trips. D instantly discards face down and the dealer kills his hand into the muck. C begins to push his cards forward face-down. Both A and B have an inalienable right to see C’s hand on request because 1) they paid to see it as C was the last aggressor on the river and 2) both A and B retain their cards. D (who also called C) relinquished his right to see C’s hand when he discarded without tabling. All other requests in this situation are at TD’s discretion, such as B asking to see A’s cards (the cards of another caller).
 

Bluegrass Poker

Straight
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
750
Reaction score
1,405
Location
Lexington, KY
I mentioned this yesterday in a different thread. I was playing in a tournament and check-raised - fold to re-raise. Not the best play I know. I was stealing and got caught. The player to my right demanded to see my cards. He was not in the hand and I tossed them in the muck. He pulled them out and showed everyone. What's the rule?
Was this a home game or casino? I’m assuming it was a home game or there would be real issues with a player pulling out of the muck.

But once you folded to the reraise he had zero right to see your hand.
 

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
5,595
Reaction score
13,088
Location
Casa Mango, FL
He was not in the hand and I tossed them in the muck. He pulled them out and showed everyone. What's the rule?

We have only had two physical altercations in the 8 years of our current group playing weekly. Both situations originated from someone doing exactly what this guy did.

That is a hard never. That action is very very far away from being acceptable. That destroys the credibility of the play of the game.

EDIT: I am not condoning violence (each aggressor was ejected immediately for the night). My point was just to highlight how egregious players feel about this action.
 
Last edited:

Jambine

Full House
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
3,092
Reaction score
3,263
Location
Three Creek Ranch, CO
From Roberts Rules

THE SHOWDOWN
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.
 

Bluegrass Poker

Straight
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
750
Reaction score
1,405
Location
Lexington, KY
From Roberts Rules

THE SHOWDOWN
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

Their was no showdown in the hand in the OP’s post.
 

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
5,595
Reaction score
13,088
Location
Casa Mango, FL
From Roberts Rules

THE SHOWDOWN
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

This was not at showdown
 

Bluegrass Poker

Straight
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
750
Reaction score
1,405
Location
Lexington, KY
We have only had two physical altercations in the 8 years of our current group playing weekly. Both situations originated from someone doing exactly what this guy did.

That is a hard never. That action is very very far away from being acceptable. That destroys the credibility of the play of the game.
Not sure I’d gotten physical but the verbal abuse would have gotten ugly.
 

TheBigTater

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
5,389
Reaction score
8,570
Location
Deep In The Bible Belt
By the basics of the rules if both hands made it to a showdown (which didn't happen in OP's example) then anyone at the table could ask to see the hand even if mucked. This is really bad etiquete but allowable by the rules. It will sometimes get you punched on occasion.

Cards folded/mucked to action/raise prior to showdown, no player has a right to see those cards and could pull back a stump if they tried that in some games.
 

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
5,595
Reaction score
13,088
Location
Casa Mango, FL
Not sure I’d gotten physical but the verbal abuse would have gotten ugly.

I certainly don’t condone violence and immediately ejected each player who struck another. And they weren’t allowed back until after a good conversation. But my point is that the offense of flipping over another players’ cards is so egregious that it can even cause conflict among friends who are grown men. It’s so egregious in fact that the flipper who got immediately hit in each incident was the first one to call the other that night to apologize. Everyone is still on great terms.
 

Bluegrass Poker

Straight
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
750
Reaction score
1,405
Location
Lexington, KY
I certainly don’t condone violence and immediately ejected each player who struck another. And they weren’t allowed back until after a good conversation. But my point is that the offense of flipping over another players’ cards is so egregious that it can even cause conflict among friends who are grown men. It’s so egregious in fact that the flipper who got immediately hit in each incident was the first one to call the other that night to apologize. Everyone is still on great terms.
Sounds like my old group. We’d been fine by end of the night too.
 

tabletalker7

Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
2,395
Reaction score
3,311
Location
Buffalo NY
You folded to action, not to showdown. If I fold to action and someone even tries to pull my cards out of the muck to see them, that person is permanently losing the hand they used to reach in the muck. Absolutely not allowed, absolutely a violation of the rules.
 

JMC9389

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
5,538
Reaction score
8,823
Location
NJ
That's in pretty poor spirit to pull cards out of the muck to show everyone. There's strategy involved in showing or not. Very poor form.

Not sure how close you are with the card puller, but I wouldn't invite them back after that stunt.
 

Gobbs

3 of a Kind
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
Messages
660
Reaction score
667
Location
Atlanta
...another reason why games need good dealers. I'm assuming it was self-dealt, but the dealer needs a bit of a talking to, too.
 

Legend5555

Flush
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
2,338
Reaction score
3,029
Location
Georgia
I've always understood it as Robert's Rules version. Anyone dealt in has the right to see any hand that went to showdown. This is how most online sites handle it too. You just check the hand history to see any have that want shown.

HOWEVER, in live poker, I feel it's bad etiquette to ask if you did not participate in the showdown. And I certainly wouldn't tolerate a player turning over someone else's cards without asking (let alone going into the muck to do so).

The rule is important though, as it gives players a way to root out possible collusion between players.
 

Poker Zombie

Royal Flush
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
13,285
Reaction score
24,351
Location
Nashville-ish
On PCF you get many debates:
  • NAGB - Good or Bad for chipping
  • KEM cards - Best cards ever, or warped overpriced garbage
  • High-end plastic chips - Excellent option, or too slippery to waste money on
  • Online poker - Game-on or rigged chipless dashboards and bots
  • Chip flipping - Entrepreneurial excellence, or pillaging the community
  • Shuffle ahead, shuffle behind, pay for dealers, or use dedicated dealers
  • Hot Dog = / <> a Sandwich?
  • When is too soon to play poker in the COVID world?
  • Over/Under on @CraigT78 's meetup beer consumption
...and all that without even peeking into the "politics" subforum.

Yet there is 100% agreement - you never get to pull a properly folded hand out of the muck.
 
Last edited:

Bluegrass Poker

Straight
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
750
Reaction score
1,405
Location
Lexington, KY
I've always understood it as Robert's Rules version. Anyone dealt in has the right to see any hand that went to showdown. This is how most online sites handle it too. You just check the hand history to see any have that want shown.

HOWEVER, in live poker, I feel it's bad etiquette to ask if you did not participate in the showdown. And I certainly wouldn't tolerate a player turning over someone else's cards without asking (let alone going into the muck to do so).

The rule is important though, as it gives players a way to root out possible collusion between players.
All true but the OP didn’t make it to showdown. He folded before.
 

Bluegrass Poker

Straight
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
750
Reaction score
1,405
Location
Lexington, KY
I mentioned this yesterday in a different thread. I was playing in a tournament and check-raised - fold to re-raise. Not the best play I know. I was stealing and got caught. The player to my right demanded to see my cards. He was not in the hand and I tossed them in the muck. He pulled them out and showed everyone. What's the rule?

So tell us what happened after he pulled your hand out of the muck? Did everyone tell him he was wrong? Is he a newer player and didn’t know?
 

Ben8257

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
6,004
Reaction score
17,527
Location
Finksburg, maryland USA
I can't sit here with a straight face and say that wouldn't get physical! Just wow! You leave now! The host of the game can talk it over with the group veteran's and debate your return in the future!

I may have skipped over something but what happened afterwards? Did no other players have an issue with this?
 

Marhault

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
3,276
Reaction score
5,305
Location
Marion, Illinois
This is something I've been thinking about lately myself for different reasons. On Poker Stars when you get to a showdown, if you have the winning hand, it seems that there are some strange situations where the loser has the option to not show their hand even though it went to showdown. Could someone explain this to me? I've always felt like there has to be an easy explanation but its just eluding me.
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,357
Reaction score
38,826
Location
Atlanta
I was playing in a tournament and check-raised - fold to re-raise. Not the best play I know. I was stealing and got caught.
If you never get caught stealing, you aren't doing it often enough.

The player to my right demanded to see my cards.
Tell him to fuck off, or reply with your offer to comply (ie, "Give me $100 to show, or fuck off."). You are under no obligation to disclose the contents of your hand, and assuming action was complete and the hand was over after you folded, it is your option to show your folded cards or not before being mucked by the dealer , and/or to ask for compensation to show if you choose to do so.

He was not in the hand
Completely irrelevant to the discussion. He could have been the dealer, your opponent who won the hand, the tournament director, another player at the table (with or without a live hand), or your freakin' mailman. Makes no difference.

I tossed them in the muck. He pulled them out and showed everyone. What's the rule?
Well, for homicide, I think it's a minimum of 20 years to life imprisonment in most states without the death penalty. Probably 3-5 years for aggravated assault, depending on how badly his arm is broken and whether or not you have a sympathetic poker-playing judge.

His action is NEVER acceptable, and one that seriously risks bodily harm. No player should ever go through the muck or attempt to retreive cards; those dead cards belong to the dealer -- who can't do it either, unless instructed to do so by the TD (tournaments) or Floor/Casino Manager (cash games). Violating that rule will invoke an immediate warning or even disqualification or removal from the property.


Tl;dr --
  • You are under no obligation to show.
  • Players are not allowed to dig through the muck for any reason.
  • Doing so risks bodily harm and/or expulsion from the game.
 
Top Bottom