What did Teddy have when it bet it all? (1 Viewer)

[WedgeRock]

If I'm Mike in this hand, I'm suspecting we might be chopping. Other than 89 (which shouldn't shock Mike if Teddy rolls it over) and TT, what hands would Teddy play that aggressively? Maybe KK or AA, and given Teddy's river speech discounting the fact that it helped Mike, AA is a real possibility. But I can't see Teddy playing bottom or middle set like this, and if he did have AA, he couldn't have been too happy when the flop brought a straight and Mike check-called twice.

 

[Ronoh]

I dare one of you guys to write John Malcovitch to ask him what his hole cards were.

Challenge accepted

I feel silly for the Pee-Wee reference but figured he likely has people throwing his own lines back at him regularly. Odds are pretty good he will respond because I'm fairly big in the world of Twitter

Spoiler

 

[WedgeRock]

Raise.

 

[manamongkids]

I always thought he had Aces

 

[upNdown]

I’m in the pocket tens camp

 

[Poker Zombie]

If he responds with "I'm sorry John, I don't remember", he will officially become my favorite actor.

 

[BGinGA]

There is a carefully hidden easter egg in "Being John Malkovich" that discloses the hole csrds. You just have to get into his head.

 

[pedrofisk]

Dudes. The prop master didn't worry about which 2 cards they gave Malcovich because the cards weren't going to be seen. You can't read anything into screen grabs. Just not how movies are made.

You can argue what the screen writer intended but that's it. This is a fun thread but it's not the Zapruder film.

 

[DJ Mack]

Dudes. The prop master didn't worry about which 2 cards they gave Malcovich because the cards weren't going to be seen. You can't read anything into screen grabs. Just not how movies are made.

You can argue what the screen writer intended but that's it. This is a fun thread but it's not the Zapruder film.

My thoughts exactly. There's a good possibility that Teddy's cards changed over the course of the scene. It's entirely possible that he held a Joker or one of the same cards held by Mike or the board. The cards he looked at throughout the scene may not have been the cards he was dealt at the beginning.

 

[Ronoh]

Well, yeah... but the question being asked is what did Teddy KGB have, not what cards were sitting on the table in front of John Malkovich. If the cards face down on the table during the filming were known to be two jokers it wouldn’t invalidate the current discussion.

 

[Perthmike]

Haha this is brilliant. It will be the best thing ever if he responds.

 

[phaze12]

koppleman has said that he finds it funny what people have come up with. he wont say what kgb had tho

 

[Mojo1312]

The answer to the question is really easy. Pocket Jacks.

 

[Perthmike]

I was always torn between pocket 10s or aces. No way would you chuck it all in on an ace river so confidently otherwise.

 

[colter ripton]

What id like to know is what hand teddy has on the first hand. He re-raises a 1000 dollar pre flop raise in a 75 dollar pot, and then folds when he's getting 4 to 1 on a call...........lol

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

When KGB says, "That ace could not have helped you," doesn't that indicate that the only hand KGB could have is AA? If Teddy didn't hold two aces, there is a possibility that the ace gave Mike a set of aces, which would have "helped" him, unless Teddy had 89, in which case he would never have said, "Pay that man his money." Logically, the only hand Teddy could have held is AA for him to be certain an ace would not help Mike.

 

[Ronoh]

When KGB says, "That ace could not have helped you," doesn't that indicate that the only hand KGB could have is AA? If Teddy didn't hold two aces, there is a possibility that the ace gave Mike a set of aces, which would have "helped" him, unless Teddy had 89, in which case he would never have said, "Pay that man his money." Logically, the only hand Teddy could have held is AA for him to be certain an ace would not help Mike.

So you think Teddy flat called Mikes min-raise preflop with AA? And then was honest enough in his table talk to basically tell Mike what his cards were before jamming 22,000 into a 13,000 pot on the river? I still say he flopped a set and is hoping the river A gave Mike aces up.

 

[biglazy]

Ive always.... Well maybe not from the first half dozen viewings, but for the last several years have always thought that he was bluffing based on his over the top posturing.

He thought mike had nothing and could muscle him off the hand and move him a little closer to his fate with grandma (grahm maul? I never knew his name)

If he had a good hand at the end why make a bet that would only result in a call if kgb was beat. Its possible he thought mike had two pair or a pocket pair but that doesnt explain all the talking he did.

 

[biglazy]

I decided to rewatch the scene after the post i just made and i have more thoughts on why it was probably a bluff.

When teddy goes all in there are three possible outcomes for the hand at that point. 1. Mike folds 2. Mike calls and kgb has best hand 3. Mike calls and mike has best hand.

So kgb would only go all in if he wanted either option 1 or 2 to happen obviously. So if he made the bet cause he wanted mike to fold then he must think mike has a better hand. He also must think mikes hand that is better than his is also bad enough that mike would more than likely fold it. So would teddy be that confident that mike would fold two pair here? Heads up two pair is pretty good. I think the best hand he thinks he could get mike to fold here is probably a middle pair, pocket or the 6 or 7. So if it is a bluff then teddy cant have better than pocket 3 4 or 5s. (Keep in mind teddy bet the whole way so what could he think mike would call with the whole way and then fold? )

Option 2 , where kgb wants his all in called, means he has something he thinks is better than mike but also that mike has something good enough to call a large all in with everything on the line (including his mortal life). So if kgb thought mike had middle pair or a higher pocket pair wouldnt he make a smaller bet that wouldnt potential scare mike off. After all mike has to be affraid of trips, two pair, straight, and AK or a slightly higher pocket pair than his if mike had one.

So maybe he thinks mike has two pair and kgb has a set or maybe kgb thinks it is a set over a set.

If thats the case then i dont see why kgb would remind mike that his life is litterally in mortal danger before going all in since that would only increase the chances of mike folding (unless teddy was trying some weird reverse psychology).

If mike had a two pair or better and checked the river than he either is doing that to check raise in which case kgbs theatrics dont make sense, or mike is checking cause he thinks the two pair or trips might be beat and is hoping kgb doesnt raise. In that scenario then kgb shouldnt push all in but instead should make a value bet the mike is strongly going to be tempted to call.

Heres the other thing i think is key. Right before mike calls he says "your right teddy, the ace didnt help me" and kgb smiles like he just got what he wanted.
that smile makes sense if teddy wants mike to fold. It doesnt if he wants mike to call.

If teddy wants mike to call then teddy could only be smiling if he thought mike was saying that phrase exactly as mike meant it where yeah the ace didnt help me but im calling because i didnt need it. Its hard to imagine mike saying something that cockey with just two pair or a lower trips especially with a straight possibility out there. That is very much an I have the nuts statement.

So if kgb went all in hoping mike would call, he would have heard warning bells go off in his head when mike got super cocky with the "your right the ace didnt help me" especially since it is almost exactly what kgb said to mike when he ripped out mike's heart when mike over valued his good hand against KGBs nut full house at the begining of the movie.

If teddy wanted mike to call, he wouldnt have smiled at mikes "the ace didnt help me " line. Plain and simple.

Teddy wanted mike to fold which is why kgb smiled when mike said the ace didnt help him.

Theres no way kgb thought i dont have the nuts but i have the 2nd or third nuts and i also think mike has a hand good enough to call this all in that isnt good enough to beat my hand but is also good enough to make me smile when mike says "your right the ace didnt help me" because at that moment i am positive hes going to call and loose.

 

[WedgeRock]

If Teddy had air why would he be so freaked out when Mikey called? He'd know he was beat... But KGB's freakout says he thought he won the pot and was amazed that Mikey had the joint.

I'm 100% positive Teddy didn't have air. Your theory holds up to the point that Teddy loses it.

 

[CHP TD]

hey with these minds and this kind of think tank work if we put our heads together we coud find out who killed JFK.

 

[Quad Johnson]

with everything on the line (including his mortal life).

I actually don't think his mortal life was on the line. Sure, he was going to take a beating. Absolutely. But gangsters aren't in the habit of just killing people that owe them money. It's completely bad business and in the end, they'd rather have their money back than have to deal with a body.

I think if Mike loses to Teddy, he becomes indentured and added to Teddy's stable as a prop player/ringer for Teddy to fleece Mike for winnings until he felt he was square. Which with the juice running means Mike is playing while in Teddy's pocket for years to come.