The Redneck Poker Card Database (2 Viewers)

surfik

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There was an attempt to visit him however that was in early hours of the morning and no one was home.
I have exhausted any possible way to contact @Dix. Called any possible phone number. Maybe some US residents have different option.
 

upNdown

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& speaking of Birthday Presents........

@surfik is a sneaky SOB. When I called him my "Clandestine East Poland Operative" I thought I was trying to be humorous. Shows how much I know. :D

At any rate, back when we finally managed to get a couple sets of Trefl over here for database testing & review there was a bonus in the package. Now, I didn't think too much of 'em, 'cause you see casino branded decks on eBay all the time, & they're usually cheap paper knockoffs from the casino's gift shop or used/cancelled decks that have been pulled from the casino floor.

So, I was a little surprised when what I got was a brand new, unused, Tobago Casino Club branded plastic deck.

& yes, the Tobago Casino Club is an actual casino located in Riga, Latvia. So, I guess you could call this a database update & review of the cards that Cartamundi produces for casino use.

CARTAMUNDI "Casino Branded"

So, 1st things 1st, these are obviously some kind of "bulk" sale/sell-off. There was no box, just a deck of the cards in the factory cello wrapper. No big deal, I have plenty of old/unused tuck-boxes & deck cases around this joint to spare. I have a suspicion as to why these may have been sold off unused, but I'll get to that in a minute.

A couple things hit me right off the bat upon unwrapping the deck....

First, they felt VERY flexible. Way more flexible than pretty much anything else in the inventory. The flex meter test confirmed that all right. & NO, this is NOT a typo.... a flex score of 25. A full 5 degrees more than the current Cellulose flex champ Modiano Texas Poker.

Somewhat surprising, given that, was the thickness at .0115". I expected them to be thinner, more like the Cartamundi Classic at .0105" or even a half a thou less.

Which brings me to surprise #2.... They are NOT PVC. Which, if they were, there's no way in Hades they'd be that flexible without being thinner. Straight out of the cello & they passed the PVC sniff test, as well as all other examination to confirm they are indeed cellulose-acetate.

Finish is what I'm going to call matte/matte. It's not quite the luxurious "linen" finish of other decks, but not that far off really. They feel very nice & are a real no-brainer pleasure to deal. & the softness makes doing the corner riffle a breeze.

OK.... so... what's going on here? How can cards obviously this good, & acetate cards no less, be so cheap?

If I had to render a guess, I'd say these were pulled by QC & sold off as "factory seconds". Now, before you freak out... let me explain.

I'd have no problem putting this deck in play at any game. There's nothing about any card that makes it "unique" from any other. And, nothing that your average player is ever going to notice in a typical poker game.

That said however, there is a "flaw" in them that obviously didn't make it past someone somewhere in the line from initial production to casino table.

It's hard to describe, & impossible to photograph, but, about 1/4" of one edge of each card is ever so slightly thicker (by about .0005" - 1/2 a thousandth of an inch) than the rest of the card. & it's not even really possible to feel it without pinching a card between the fingers of one hand & sliding it back & forth between them. Then you can JUST barely feel a difference in that one end of each card. Also, if you hold a card at just the right angle to a light source, then, you can see it.

It's so slight, I didn't even pick up on it when I was initially measuring thickness. It wasn't until I figured it out that I was able to go back & actually measure it by paying close attention to exactly where I was measuring.

You can also see the effect of it after you've shuffled the deck a few times & the thicker edge is now randomly on the opposite side of the deck of some. If you hold the deck in your hand & look at the edge, it looks like the edges of some are randomly not actually in contact with the card(s) just above and/or below it depending on which direction the one next to it is facing.

If these decks never made it to the casino & were pulled by Cartamundi before they left the factory, that says a lot for their quality control. Because you really have to be paying a lot of attention to even notice it. Modiano could take a lesson here if that's the case.

The only mystery in my mind is HOW this happened.

At 1st I was thinking that it was an issue in the coating process. But, the fact that cards are printed on large sheets & cut into individual cards later makes that impossible, as the issue is exactly the same on the same edge of every individual card. Best guess I can come up with is something during the cutting process went sideways. Or during sorting/packaging maybe.

Now, again, let me add here. None of this effects the general feel & handling them. They shuffle, feel, & deal like any other good deck of acetate cards (albeit somewhat softer), and I'd have no issues with using 'em all night long. In fact, as a dealer, I suspect I'd rather enjoy the experience given the softness & deal-ability.

There are a couple "curiosities" though....

First off, these are obviously meant for casino use. While the backs of all the "working" cards of the deck have the casino's brand on the backs, The backs of not just the promo/info cards, but even BOTH of the jokers, have the backs split in two & sporting both the casino & Cartamundi's logos. So playing any game that requires use of the jokers is impossible.


They're jumbo index. & the word "jumbo" is an understatement. I could read the up cards of the player at the other end of the table during a game of stud without my glasses easily.


The only "niggle" I have is the font used. In some numerals it almost resembles that annoying "LED Display" type font that we all grew to hate a decade ago. :D


I'm all for using bold fonts to give a unique & easier to read face. But, this one's a little weird looking. Maybe a sans-serif version would have been a better choice.

All in all, if I was looking for a bulk buy for our MTTs, & I could score a deal of these for a cheap price I'd be all over 'em. They're as good as any good acetate card out there, & beat the pants of many more expensive decks made of PVC.

As always, specs are now in the database: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/resources/the-redneck-poker-card-database-2-0.76/
I just got my hands on a couple of the Cartamundi Tobago casino decks and I wish I bought more. I would have, sight unseen, just based on this review, if they’d come in two colors for a proper setup and/or if they’d been bridge size. Anyway, the reviews are dead on - flexiest stock ever, which makes them damn near perfect in my book.
The finish is a tad rougher than KEM and there’s a bit more top card float than is ideal, but that’s it for the cons. Some people may complain about the jumbo size index, but I’ll never understand those people. Anyway, these are damn near perfect, and if anybody knows of any other cards printed on this stock, please let me know.
 

surfik

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I just got my hands on a couple of the Cartamundi Tobago casino decks and I wish I bought more. I would have, sight unseen, just based on this review, if they’d come in two colors for a proper setup and/or if they’d been bridge size. Anyway, the reviews are dead on - flexiest stock ever, which makes them damn near perfect in my book.
The finish is a tad rougher than KEM and there’s a bit more top card float than is ideal, but that’s it for the cons. Some people may complain about the jumbo size index, but I’ll never understand those people. Anyway, these are damn near perfect, and if anybody knows of any other cards printed on this stock, please let me know.
There is a online shop in Netherlands offering Cartamundi blue/red with same back minus Tobago logo. Not sure if it's same stock, but it looks that way. Link is listed somewhere in this thread....
Sadly I am out of Cartamundi... Kept few decks for myself...
Glad you like them....
 

Thomacetti

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I just got my hands on a couple of the Cartamundi Tobago casino decks and I wish I bought more. I would have, sight unseen, just based on this review, if they’d come in two colors for a proper setup and/or if they’d been bridge size. Anyway, the reviews are dead on - flexiest stock ever, which makes them damn near perfect in my book.
The finish is a tad rougher than KEM and there’s a bit more top card float than is ideal, but that’s it for the cons. Some people may complain about the jumbo size index, but I’ll never understand those people. Anyway, these are damn near perfect, and if anybody knows of any other cards printed on this stock, please let me know.
These are the only available cards that have the identical stock as the Tobago cards.

These & these are almost identical


Link to review
 

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These are the only available cards that have the identical stock as the Tobago cards.

These & these are almost identical


Link to review
Thanks. Just received some Neder Poker decks. They are the perfect companion to the Tobago’s.
I have to add here, that I spent some time shuffling the Neders (and Tobago’s) and some casino KEMs. The KEMs are still the winner for me. The flexiness seems the same between the two brands, but the KEMs have a slightly softer feeling. But I’m picking nits here - they’re both fantastic.

Anyway, does anybody know the story behind the Neder Poker cards? Does “Neder Poker” mean something? What is “Lords of Poker?” Is that a website or a card brand or what? Whatever the story is, it’s nice of them to include a tuck box.
E11A80B4-E9EE-4A78-85E1-B333641B23E2.jpeg
 

surfik

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Thanks. Just received some Neder Poker decks. They are the perfect companion to the Tobago’s.
I have to add here, that I spent some time shuffling the Neders (and Tobago’s) and some casino KEMs. The KEMs are still the winner for me. The flexiness seems the same between the two brands, but the KEMs have a slightly softer feeling. But I’m picking nits here - they’re both fantastic.

Anyway, does anybody know the story behind the Neder Poker cards? Does “Neder Poker” mean something? What is “Lords of Poker?” Is that a website or a card brand or what? Whatever the story is, it’s nice of them to include a tuck box.
View attachment 782484
How much you paid for those?
 

Thomacetti

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Thanks. Just received some Neder Poker decks. They are the perfect companion to the Tobago’s.
I have to add here, that I spent some time shuffling the Neders (and Tobago’s) and some casino KEMs. The KEMs are still the winner for me. The flexiness seems the same between the two brands, but the KEMs have a slightly softer feeling. But I’m picking nits here - they’re both fantastic.

Anyway, does anybody know the story behind the Neder Poker cards? Does “Neder Poker” mean something? What is “Lords of Poker?” Is that a website or a card brand or what? Whatever the story is, it’s nice of them to include a tuck box.
View attachment 782484
If those Kem's are used...then the Carta's need some play too to get soft, just like the Kem's.
 

TheOffalo

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Anyone know where to get Cartamundi Classic cards referred on the list?
I don't think the ones you found on Amazon are the ones you're looking for. I think they'll say 100% plastic on the packaging like this:

1637647123288.png
 

TX_Golf_N_Poker

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Presumably the flexibility and width and all of that has been tested? I have the platinum acetates as well as a deck of the Texas ones. The only way I could honestly tell them apart is the slightly different smell of the PVC. From a flexibility and thickness standpoint you’d have to get scientific measurements to discern which is which (aside from the design on the back). So that being said, the Texas ones are really nice.
I should get out my digital calipers and test out the platinums, the Texas ones, a d the guilds to see what difference I can measure.
I had to come back to this thread because I just got my hands on my first sets of Modiano Platinum. Really fine cards, but now I see what you mean about the difference in smell. I've never noticed anything odd about any of my PVC cards, but as soon as I started handling the Platinums I thought someone had opened a jar of pickles! LOL! Still really awesome cards though. I suspect I'm now spoiled for life. No more cheap cards for me...
 

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And on another note, I just noticed that tomorrow will mark one full year since @Dix has logged in to PCF. Makes me sad as I contemplate the possibilities. Another user's spouse logged in to his account over the weekend to let us know that he had passed away in January. I'm not going to tag him here since his wife may continue to log in, but PM me if you want to know who. As a hint he had been posting in his thread about his Grateful Dead themed custom Royals set. I hope this is not the case with Dix, but it surely seems possible.
 

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And on another note, I just noticed that tomorrow will mark one full year since @Dix has logged in to PCF. Makes me sad as I contemplate the possibilities. Another user's spouse logged in to his account over the weekend to let us know that he had passed away in January. I'm not going to tag him here since his wife may continue to log in, but PM me if you want to know who. As a hint he had been posting in his thread about his Grateful Dead themed custom Royals set. I hope this is not the case with Dix, but it surely seems possible.
I’ve thought the same thing. And I’d guess that as often as not, when somebody dies, there is no explanation for their online communities.
But if that’s the case, continuing to use this resource is a great way to honor him.
 

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I had to come back to this thread because I just got my hands on my first sets of Modiano Platinum. Really fine cards, but now I see what you mean about the difference in smell. I've never noticed anything odd about any of my PVC cards, but as soon as I started handling the Platinums I thought someone had opened a jar of pickles! LOL! Still really awesome cards though. I suspect I'm now spoiled for life. No more cheap cards for me...
And on that note, according to Dix, the platinums are stiffer than standard Modiano stock. Do you notice that? Because I’ve always wanted to try platinums, but if they’re noticeably stiffer, I guess I don’t.
 

TheOffalo

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I had to come back to this thread because I just got my hands on my first sets of Modiano Platinum. Really fine cards, but now I see what you mean about the difference in smell. I've never noticed anything odd about any of my PVC cards, but as soon as I started handling the Platinums I thought someone had opened a jar of pickles! LOL! Still really awesome cards though. I suspect I'm now spoiled for life. No more cheap cards for me...
Most of the PVC cards I've owned (Copags, Bicycle Prestiges) have a mild almost melted-plastic sweet scent to them. The Dal Negro Freedom/Liberty design all had a more burnt-plastic smell to them. I just opened a Modiano Cristallo (PVC) deck and surprisingly it had no scent.
And on that note, according to Dix, the platinums are stiffer than standard Modiano stock. Do you notice that? Because I’ve always wanted to try platinums, but if they’re noticeably stiffer, I guess I don’t.
Which is interesting because I always thought the addition of the cellulose would make the Modiano Platinums more flexible and paper-like. Not that those two qualities are necessarily linked, but the KEMs I've handled definitely feel more paper-like and flexible.

Obviously the database tries to be objective, but in my subjective experience, Copags do not have the same amount of flex as KEMs, and I think the non-Platinum Modianos are slightly less flexible than either.
 
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Most of the PVC cards I've owned (Copags, Bicycle Prestiges) have a mild almost melted-plastic sweet scent to them. The Dal Negro Freedom/Liberty design all had a more burnt-plastic smell to them. I just opened a Modiano Cristallo (PVC) deck and surprisingly it had no scent.

Which is interesting because I always thought the addition of the cellulose would make the Modiano Platinums more flexible and paper-like. Not that those two qualities are necessarily linked, but the KEMs I've handled definitely feel more paper-like and flexible.

Obviously the database tries to be objective, but in my subjective experience, Copags do not have the same amount of flex as KEMs, and I think the non-Platinum Modianos are slightly less flexible than either.
Interesting. Tell me this - are you buying your platinums new, or are you getting them used (seems like a lot of used platinums are kind here.)
 

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Interesting. Tell me this - are you buying your platinums new, or are you getting them used (seems like a lot of used platinums are kind here.)
I do not own any Platinums. I'm only comparing non-Platinum Modiano Cristallos (4-pip jumbo) 100% PVC to the KEMs I used to own and the Copags I still own.

I had always just assumed that the cellulose-acetate in the Platinums would be similar to the KEMs in making them more flexible. Someday I'll get a setup to try out. I've pretty much given up on KEMs because I don't like the "maintenance" and worry that they'll bow/crack, so would be interesting to see first-hand how other decks made of cellulose-acetate compare.
 

TX_Golf_N_Poker

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And on that note, according to Dix, the platinums are stiffer than standard Modiano stock. Do you notice that? Because I’ve always wanted to try platinums, but if they’re noticeably stiffer, I guess I don’t.
I haven't done any direct comparisons yet to any other cards, but they are definitely not super flexible like some cards are. Which I dislike. And they are not super stiff like some other cards I've had that I also dislike. To me, they're perfectly in the middle. I'm not a terribly proficient dealer, but I think they shuffle like a dream.

I also don't think they are noticeably stiffer than other Modianos because the only other Modiano deck I have, and my DaVinci cards (which I think are made by Modiano on the same stock as their other PVC cards) are my two favorite previously owned decks. These seem from memory to be pretty similar. I'll do some direct (amateur) comparisons later tonight if I get time.
 

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I haven't done any direct comparisons yet to any other cards, but they are definitely not super flexible like some cards are. Which I dislike. And they are not super stiff like some other cards I've had that I also dislike. To me, they're perfectly in the middle. I'm not a terribly proficient dealer, but I think they shuffle like a dream.

I also don't think they are noticeably stiffer than other Modianos because the only other Modiano deck I have, and my DaVinci cards (which I think are made by Modiano on the same stock as their other PVC cards) are my two favorite previously owned decks. These seem from memory to be pretty similar. I'll do some direct (amateur) comparisons later tonight if I get time.
I have been told that davinci is made by Modiano, but perhaps it’s a different stock, because if you refer to the updated database, the davincis are reportedly stiffer than modianos
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/resources/the-redneck-poker-card-database-2-0.76/
 

TX_Golf_N_Poker

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I have been told that davinci is made by Modiano, but perhaps it’s a different stock, because if you refer to the updated database, the davincis are reportedly stiffer than modianos
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/resources/the-redneck-poker-card-database-2-0.76/
Yeah, I think this brings up an issue I was having with the database back at the time Dix stopped posting. Notice that both the Desjin / Modiano (all others) row and the DaVinci row indicate that those cards are cellulose acetate. But I'm pretty sure (from comments others made) that is incorrect and both those Modiano lines are PVC. For some reason I was thinking someone said all the current Modiano lines (not Platinum) and the Davinci line were the same. But I may well be wrong about that. I think those conversations are in this thread back a few pages, but I don't have time to go sleuthing right now.

I did pull out my DaVincis, which WERE my favorite cards before the Platinums showed up, and yes, they are a tiny bit stiffer than the Platinums. The slight amount of additional flexibility in the Platinums make them just perfect to me. I hate Kems due to them being way too flexible. And I think what I loved about my other set of Modiano cards was the linen / linen finish more than the flexibility which may well have been more than the Platinums. I've had a lot of junk cards in the past, and once I felt a linen / linen finish card, nothing else would do for me.

Regardless of all my drivel in this post, the Platinums are amazing. They are absolutely the most perfect cards for me.
 

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Yeah, I think this brings up an issue I was having with the database back at the time Dix stopped posting. Notice that both the Desjin / Modiano (all others) row and the DaVinci row indicate that those cards are cellulose acetate. But I'm pretty sure (from comments others made) that is incorrect and both those Modiano lines are PVC. For some reason I was thinking someone said all the current Modiano lines (not Platinum) and the Davinci line were the same. But I may well be wrong about that. I think those conversations are in this thread back a few pages, but I don't have time to go sleuthing right now.

I did pull out my DaVincis, which WERE my favorite cards before the Platinums showed up, and yes, they are a tiny bit stiffer than the Platinums. The slight amount of additional flexibility in the Platinums make them just perfect to me. I hate Kems due to them being way too flexible. And I think what I loved about my other set of Modiano cards was the linen / linen finish more than the flexibility which may well have been more than the Platinums. I've had a lot of junk cards in the past, and once I felt a linen / linen finish card, nothing else would do for me.

Regardless of all my drivel in this post, the Platinums are amazing. They are absolutely the most perfect cards for me.
Yup. I didn’t realize I still had a Davinci setup. I just pulled out a davinci bridge size deck and a Modiano bridge sized deck and played around with them. Same exact cards.
The davinci entry needs to be corrected..
 

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Yup. I didn’t realize I still had a Davinci setup. I just pulled out a davinci bridge size deck and a Modiano bridge sized deck and played around with them. Same exact cards.
The davinci entry needs to be corrected..
You mean the Modiano entry?
 

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So I got all three of my decks out too. Unfortunately the regular Modiano deck I have is bridge size and the other two are poker size. But that didn't make any difference. It was still obvious that of the cards I had (unlike @upNdown ) the regular Modiano was absolutely not the same stock as the DaVinci. I will say that my regular Modiano deck was from a closed card room here in Houston and was not a retail deck. Don't know if that would make any difference. Also the card stock of the Modiano felt more similar to the Platinums than to the Davinci. Even though all are listed as linen / linen, the Davincis are a little more slick. I would guess that it's possible the Modiano deck could have been cellulose acetate while the Davinci cards are almost certainly PVC. Maybe Modiano makes a special version of cards for casinos and card rooms that's acetate and comes in bridge size? Or maybe these are an older stock that they don't make at all any more. I'm just guessing here.

In terms of flexibility, I would say my cards match the order of what is in the database. The regular Modiano deck was the most flexible. The Davinci deck was the least flexible. and the Platinums were in between, but to me were closer to the regular Modianos than to the Davincis. The database lists Davinci at 16 flex, Platinum at 17, and regular Modiano at 19.5. I would say my Modiano deck was not nearly that flxible. Probably not more than 18, and maybe 17.5. Based only on feel of course since I don't have the equipment to do any measuring like Dix did.

I think in order to truly make this comparison, I need to buy a retail deck of Modiano. I've been wanting to order a setup of their Texas Poker line to try them out. Then I will have a better idea whether the current Modiano line is similar or different from the Davinci line.
 

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Modiano Platinum are maybe flexible.
However, i have only had problems with them.
Main complaints are:
1.The subjective feel when going with the thumb over the back side and the face side of the cards. I dislike it.
I do like the feel of KEM and CARTAMUNDI BE casino poker which, if not mistaken, are also acetate in comparison.
2.The subjective feeling when doing a riffle suffle. They come as too stiff for my taste.
I do like the shuffle feeling with other cards that may also be stiff such as Dal Negro ones.
3. 20% of my Modiano Platinum sets have warped and bowed with use.
In comparison, my KEM decks have only slightly bowed with use.
All acetate sets i have are stored in normal/protected environment upside down inside boxes with a chip on top of a cut card on top of the deck.
The warping and bowing issue is the main reason i don't buy the Platinum Modiano any more .

However, if one likes the feel, the shuffle feeling, the stiffness,
and has no problems with warping/bowing,
they are very robust cards, of good quality, with nice readable fonts and graphics, good durability ok price for what they offer.
 

upNdown

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I will say that my regular Modiano deck was from a closed card room here in Houston and was not a retail deck. Don't know if that would make any difference.
Ha. The Modiano deck i was using was also a casino deck - those Alphas that got around a year or two ago.
They’re 100% the same cards as my davincis.
Maybe there were multiple releases of different Davincis?
 

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So I got all three of my decks out too. Unfortunately the regular Modiano deck I have is bridge size and the other two are poker size. But that didn't make any difference. It was still obvious that of the cards I had (unlike @upNdown ) the regular Modiano was absolutely not the same stock as the DaVinci. I will say that my regular Modiano deck was from a closed card room here in Houston and was not a retail deck. Don't know if that would make any difference. Also the card stock of the Modiano felt more similar to the Platinums than to the Davinci. Even though all are listed as linen / linen, the Davincis are a little more slick. I would guess that it's possible the Modiano deck could have been cellulose acetate while the Davinci cards are almost certainly PVC. Maybe Modiano makes a special version of cards for casinos and card rooms that's acetate and comes in bridge size? Or maybe these are an older stock that they don't make at all any more. I'm just guessing here.

In terms of flexibility, I would say my cards match the order of what is in the database. The regular Modiano deck was the most flexible. The Davinci deck was the least flexible. and the Platinums were in between, but to me were closer to the regular Modianos than to the Davincis. The database lists Davinci at 16 flex, Platinum at 17, and regular Modiano at 19.5. I would say my Modiano deck was not nearly that flxible. Probably not more than 18, and maybe 17.5. Based only on feel of course since I don't have the equipment to do any measuring like Dix did.

I think in order to truly make this comparison, I need to buy a retail deck of Modiano. I've been wanting to order a setup of their Texas Poker line to try them out. Then I will have a better idea whether the current Modiano line is similar or different from the Davinci line.
Just for reference, these are the Davincis I have - does anybody have different ones, that could be different stock?
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