PLO-8 hand - river decision

Frogzilla

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Tell me what you do in this river spot. $1/$2 PLO-8, fairly deep, and villain is extremely active. We played a 250 hand session and he might have seen all 250 flops. Fairly skilled and absolutely capable/willing to bluff

Preflop - 5 handed 1/2 PLO-8, 378 effective
HJ calls 2
CO calls 2
Hero (BU) raises :ac: :qs: :8s: :7h: to 10
SB calls 10
Villain (BB) raises to 44
HJ folds
CO calls 44
Hero calls
SB folds

Flop - 144, 3 players
:6s: :2d: :2h:
checks through


Turn - 144, 3 players
:6s: :2d: :2h: :ks:
BB checks
CO checks
Hero bets 57
BB calls
CO folds

River - 258, heads up
:6s: :2d: :2h: :ks: :2c:
BB bets 258
Hero ( :ac: :qs: :8s: :7h: )?
 

joker80

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You have ace high, no low.... ? If they have any pair, any K, any 6 or the 2 they beat you.... ??? You can't call, even if they are bluffing
 

Frogzilla

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A few questions:
  • Why’d you raise pre?
  • Why’d you call Villain’s 3-bet pre?
  • Why’d you bet the turn?
  • Why is doing anything other than inst-folding a consideration?
1/2) Not that I think these are good plays, but pre I have what I think is an above average hand in position.

3) on the turn I sensed weakness and trying to take it down, set up river bluffs, get it heads up where I can show down some rivers. Thought some good things can happen.

4) my gut is that we beat a lot of hands that take this line. How is a busted low draw going to play river. How is a counterfeited K going to play. Does your mid pocket like 99 donk pot or try to check/call instead. I know we’re behind all the value, but nevertheless are we good >34% here?
 

trigs

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Fold preflop (although calling is possible but I don't like the raise).

As played: check flop, check turn, fold river. I'm no expert, but I don't think that AcQs8s7h is an "above average hand" in PLO8. You can't hit nut flush. You can't hit nut low. Flop would have to come perfectly for you to win a big hand.
 

Rhodeman77

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If I am playing this hand at all it is a limp hoping to flop a monster like trip Aces or Queens and folding if there is a raise for sure, and only limping in the first place if the table has been limping a lot.

As played I’m done with this hand on the flop, not another $ gets put in the pot.

Let’s not forget that 2’s are very important cards in O8. I wouldn’t be surprised is BB has A2 and didn’t bet the flop since he paired his 2. Or has AA2x. Any hand that was willing to raise to $44 preflop is infinitely better than AQ78.

Give up now and don’t be surprised when BB shows AA or A2 that was not folding to your bet.
 
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joker80

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In Omaha you have to play 2

Yes I know, I missed that the 3 of a kind would be your hand with AQ.... still any pair would beat you and I could see someone blasting away with a 2 hoping that someone with a pair and a full house would call.

I also would not call that a premium hi/lo hand. If you make a low it will not be a good one and your ace is not suited
 

Frogzilla

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Fold preflop (although calling is possible but I don't like the raise).

As played: check flop, check turn, fold river. I'm no expert, but I don't think that AcQs8s7h is an "above average hand" in PLO8. You can't hit nut flush. You can't hit nut low. Flop would have to come perfectly for you to win a big hand.
Looks like it’s around 64%, (where less is better). So you are right, it is not above average
 

Rhodeman77

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The only other reason to limp play this hand is to advertise you will play some trash hands if you end up getting to a cheap showdown. But in your case that isn’t necessary! :whistle: :whistling:
 

ruskba

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There's no justification for calling this river. You don't have a bluff catching hand, you're holding a pretty sad hand to start and haven't hit any of the few and far between boards that actually put you in a good spot.

If you called and won, congrats. Go buy a lotto ticket next time.
 

TwoSevenOff

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250 hand session and he might have seen all 250 flops. Fairly skilled and absolutely capable/willing to bluff


I'm gonna stop you there. If he truly played almost 100% of hands, he's just super loose-aggressive. He's not skilled at all.

Easy fold on the river. You're not gonna outbluff such a loose aggressive villain in the long run. Your starting hand was pretty suspect in the first place (though you had the button).
 

Frogzilla

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Let’s just get it out of the way, I called, he had QQ for a boat, I lost.

This is way more lopsided river. What am I missing that I am assigning a ton of bluffs to this line where y’all think he doesn’t have any many. Ok so let’s assume he doesn’t check any of his value range (even though I was turn aggressor), so he has all the 2x (that didn’t cbet flop), AA, KK that didn’t raise turn with a low draw out there, QQ, JJ, and even TT. That’s a generous value range.

Does this not reek of counterfeited Kx and Busted low draws?
 

TwoSevenOff

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Let’s just get it out of the way, I called, he had QQ for a boat, I lost.

This is way more lopsided river. What am I missing that I am assigning a ton of bluffs to this line where y’all think he doesn’t have any many. Ok so let’s assume he doesn’t check any of his value range (even though I was turn aggressor), so he has all the 2x (that didn’t cbet flop), AA, KK that didn’t raise turn with a low draw out there, QQ, JJ, and even TT. That’s a generous value range.

Does this not reek of counterfeited Kx and Busted low draws?

Call, fold, or raise. You chose call (worst decision out of all 3). You were essentially trying to catch a bluff with a garbage hand. If you made a substantial raise, that may be defendable (better decision than calling). This isn't hold em, you're not win many hands calling a bluff with nothing but AQ high. A pair of threes would have beaten your hand for crying out loud.
 

ruskba

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Let’s just get it out of the way, I called, he had QQ for a boat, I lost.

This is way more lopsided river. What am I missing that I am assigning a ton of bluffs to this line where y’all think he doesn’t have any many. Ok so let’s assume he doesn’t check any of his value range (even though I was turn aggressor), so he has all the 2x (that didn’t cbet flop), AA, KK that didn’t raise turn with a low draw out there, QQ, JJ, and even TT. That’s a generous value range.

Does this not reek of counterfeited Kx and Busted low draws?

Because you beat barely any bluffs? Even if he has Kx, you lose if he has an Ace. If he has a low draw with any pair in the hand, you lose. Could be A344, A488, whatever. You could maybe make a case for a raise if you think he's weak, but that's obviously not an option here.
 

Rhodeman77

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Let’s just get it out of the way, I called, he had QQ for a boat, I lost.

This is way more lopsided river. What am I missing that I am assigning a ton of bluffs to this line where y’all think he doesn’t have any many. Ok so let’s assume he doesn’t check any of his value range (even though I was turn aggressor), so he has all the 2x (that didn’t cbet flop), AA, KK that didn’t raise turn with a low draw out there, QQ, JJ, and even TT. That’s a generous value range.

Does this not reek of counterfeited Kx and Busted low draws?

Did you take into consideration that Villain was playing the player more than his own hand? You are aggressive, you will bet if checked to. It doesn’t take long for a thinking player to realize he can trap you with a wide range of hands when you play AQ78 in a 3 bet pot.
 

Frogzilla

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Call, fold, or raise. You chose call (worst decision out of all 3). You were essentially trying to catch a bluff with a garbage hand. If you made a substantial raise, that may be defendable (better decision than calling). This isn't hold em, you're not win many hands calling a bluff with nothing but AQ high. A pair of threes would have beaten your hand for crying out loud.
Oh I didn’t make this clear enough, effective stacks was around ~270 on the river 258 pot bet left me like 15 back. Call and raise is basically identical here
 

Rhodeman77

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There is also a chance Villain was turning his hand into a bluff since his preflop 3 bet will usually represent AA2x and he was trying to get you to fold KK?
 

Frogzilla

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Because you beat barely any bluffs? Even if he has Kx, you lose if he has an Ace. If he has a low draw with any pair in the hand, you lose. Could be A344, A488, whaytever. You could maybe make a case for a raise if you think he's weak, but that's obviously not an option here.
Surely we can discount low pockets after villain leads pot on the river?
 

Rhodeman77

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Let’s just get it out of the way, I called, he had QQ for a boat, I lost.

This is way more lopsided river. What am I missing that I am assigning a ton of bluffs to this line where y’all think he doesn’t have any many. Ok so let’s assume he doesn’t check any of his value range (even though I was turn aggressor), so he has all the 2x (that didn’t cbet flop), AA, KK that didn’t raise turn with a low draw out there, QQ, JJ, and even TT. That’s a generous value range.

Does this not reek of counterfeited Kx and Busted low draws?

what were the other 2 cards in Villains hand? It is good to know to evaluate his play as well. A3QQds? AKQQ playing a high only hand?
 
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Don't worry folks Limon has already addressed the above questions in his always rereadable "random shyt" post on 2+2.

SHyCVtQ.png
 

Josh Kifer

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A few questions:
  • Why’d you raise pre?
  • Why’d you call Villain’s 3-bet pre?
  • Why’d you bet the turn?
  • Why is doing anything other than inst-folding a consideration?
So. Yeah. Instafold. All. Day. Long. No. God. No. Fold.
 

xdan

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Yeah that’s pretty horrible pre. And doesn’t get any better from there
 
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