Order that CPC's molds were created? (1 Viewer)

[Felt_Lizard]

Does anyone know roughly when each mold was made? Even rounded to the nearest decade?

Feel free to include retired/lost/destroyed molds....

 

[CrazyEddie]

Not off the top of my head, but it would be easy to put the list together using:

a) http://www.pokerchipsonline.com/pokerchips/realclay/molddesigns.htm

and

b) https://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/molddesignindex_site.htm

Probably won't be complete, as not every entry in molds database has all the information one might want. But it would be a good start!

 

[warma]

The CPC version of large and small crowns came last in 2018. https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/resurrection-of-the-tr-king-small-large-crown-molds.33865/

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

This is something I have been trying to research. For some chips there are USPC, Burt or other company records. The first use of many molds, however, can only be estimated by knowing the open and close dates of establishments that used chips on that mold.

Below is the information I have for just some of the currently used CPC molds.

The oldest mold that CPC currently uses is the Large Crown mold which dates to 1929. There is a USPC record of the first shipment of those chips to TRK.

The second oldest CPC mold is likely the H mold. A patent was granted to H. C. Edwards for the mold in 1934, and but they likely began using it a couple of years before that.

The third oldest current CPC mold might be the Diamond Square mold. Several places during the late 1930s and early 1940s used the mold. Curiously, there is no concrete record of who first owned the mold. It may have been Code & Co. in Chicago, IL.

The Square in Circle mold is frequently cited as dating to 1947, which is the earliest record that the Portland Card Co (Portland, Oregon) has of using that mold which they owned until they sold it to ASM in 1998 or 1999.

 

[Felt_Lizard]

This is something I have been trying to research.

Thank you! I appreciate that info! It also pretty much solidifies plans to get a set on the H mold.

Be anyone else want fill in some gaps?

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I guess I can continue that chronology a bit.

The Small Crown mold is older than many people would guess. I’ve come across several TRK order records for small crown chips from 1947, and there might be slightly older small crown orders that I haven’t come across yet. First used in Las Vegas in 1949.

The earliest Burt order card for the Roman mold is from 1954, but all pre-1954 Burt order cards were lost in a fire. Penn Specialty (Allentown, PA) who owned that mold was using it before that date. At least one Roman/Weave mold chip seems to date to 1952. The children of the original owner of Penn Specialty sold the rights to the mold to Burt/ASM around 1983 or 1984.

The Horse Head Right mold was originally owned by the Langworthy Supply Co. (LV, NV) and was first used by them around 1965. ASM got rights to the mold in 1996.

 

[Felt_Lizard]

Hmmm. Asm really consolidated ownership of a lot of molds in the 80's and 90's. But I am assuming they were the ones making chips for all of those molds even before owning the molds. I don't know of any other company that had the equipment....

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

Yes, Burt/ASM/CPC manufactured most of those chips even before they owned the mold (except for the large and small crown mold chips). For chips with edge molds made before 1947, they were usually manufactured by the USPC Co, which sold their manufacturing equipment and transferred the physical molds to the Burt Co. around 1947.

The business model of the Burt Co. was to never directly sell chips to casinos, but rather to distributors (gambling supply companies) that sold to casinos. When ASM took over in 1984, they began to sell directly to end users, and when they had a chance they bought the ownership rights to those molds.

There was a recent thread in which all of the manufacturers of compression clay chips are identified. There have been only a handful, and there are only two left.

 

[warma]

So there are several interesting questions in the question as evidenced by HHR, S/L Crown, Roman mold histories above alone.

1. When did the mold designs used by CPC first appear?
2. When did CPC* first offer them to the public?
3. How did CPC acquire the actual molds they use*?

*includes Burt/ASM/CPC history

 

[CrazyEddie]

And on top of that, there's the question of which molds CPC still has possession of but cannot advertise because they don't have permission from the owners. I tried to find a list of them, but the details are apparently not publicly disclosed. See here and here.

Not to mention - which molds did Burt/ASM/CPC have which they no no longer have possession of, and who has them?

The web mold has a fascinating history, having bounced around from Burt to Paulson to BCC for manufacturing, and from Ace Sportworks to Marion and Co to Holdem Poker Chips for ownership. See here, and note some of the information is still uncertain.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

And on top of that, there's the question of which molds CPC still has possession of but cannot advertise because they don't have permission from the owners. I tried to find a list of them, but the details are apparently not publicly disclosed. See here and here.

Not to mention - which molds did Burt/ASM/CPC have which they no no longer have possession of, and who has them?

A lot of that information is already out there. In this post on the ChipBoard, David Spragg provided a list of most of the molds his company inherited, and where they are now. Many were donated to the Nevada Historical Society.

He posted that in response to a post of mine in which I listed a chronology (using the waybackmachine) of when ASM had listed (and unlisted) molds as available to the public on their website beginning in 1998. I made a couple of small mistakes in that chronology. Its impossible to edit posts on the ChipBoard, and I hate to leave mistakes out there, so below is the correct chronology. As I mention in that thread, some molds were made available on ChipTalk before they were listed publicly on the website.

pokerchips.com
11/1998 - HHR, A, Roman
12/1998 – HHR, A, Roman
4/1999 - HHR, A, Roman
10/1999 – HHR, A, Roman
4/2000 - HHR, A, Roman,
12/2000 – HHR, A, Roman
6/2001 - HHR, A, Roman
10/2001 – HHR, A, Roman
2/2002 – HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square,
7/2002 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square,
11/2002 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square
10/2003 – HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square,
3/2004 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, DieCard
12/2004 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, DieCard
11/2005 – HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, DieCard,
11/2006 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, DieCard,
1/2007 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, DieCard,
8/2007 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square
10/2007 – HHR, A, Circle Square, H-mold, Hourglass
12/2007 - HHR, A, Circle Square, H-mold, Hourglass
3/2008 – HHR, A, Circle Square, H-mold, Hourglass,
10/2008 - HHR, A, Circle Square, H-mold, Hourglass
pokerchipsonline.com
2/2009 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur De Lis
12/2009 - HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, DieCard, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur-De-lis,
2/2010 – HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, DieCard, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur-De-lis,
1/2011 – HHR, A, Roman, Circle Square, DieCard, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur-De-lis,
8/2011 – HHR, A, Circle Square, DieCard, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur-De-Lis, No Mold (Textured)
11/2011– HHR, A, Circle Square, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur-De-Lis, No Mold (Textured)
6/2012 – HHR, A, Circle Square, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur-De-Lis, No Mold (Textured), Diamond-Square, A-Mold 44 mm
4/2013 – HHR, A, Circle Square, DieCard, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur-De-Lis, No Mold (Textured),
11/2013 - HHR, A, Circle Square, DieCard, H-mold, Hourglass, B-Diamond
classicpokerchips.com
7/2014 – HHR, A, Circle Square, DieCard, H-mold, Hourglass, Fleur-De-Lys (out for repairs), No Mold (Textured), Diamond-Square, B-Diamond, ROULETTE (available to casinos only), Jockey, Scroll, Scroll 44 mm, Ewing (for casinos only)
4/2015 – same as above, Fleur-De-Lys added back.
12/2015 – same as above,
9/2016 - same as above,
3/2017 – same as above, A Mold 44 mm and Elephant & Crown added
10/2018 – same as above, Small Crown and Large Crown added

 

[CrazyEddie]

Incredible thread, thanks for the pointer!

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

The web mold has a fascinating history, having bounced around from Burt to Paulson to BCC for manufacturing, and from Ace Sportworks to Marion and Co to Holdem Poker Chips for ownership. See here, and note some of the information is still uncertain.

@CrazyEddie, I haven't seen that thread before, and thanks for linking to it. I would have chimed in. I do have a bit more information about the Web mold.

First, I believe that chips on the mold were actually made by four different companies, originally by the USPC Co. from the 1930s until around 1947, then by the Burt Co. from 1947 to 1995, then by Paulson from 1995 to 2002, and then by the Blue Chip Co., I believe from about 2008 to 2009. (@BGinGA or @Potsie1 may know more about the dates of the BCC era of those chips.)

Ownership began with Ace Sports Works (NY, NY) in the 1930s. Ace Sports Works (and the mold) was acquired by the Victor Fliegelman Co. (also NY NY) I believe in the early 1980s. (I found a 1982 business directory that list the two companies as merged). In 1983, Victor Fliegelman changes its name to Marion & Co (NY, NY). Like Ace Sport Works, they only occasionally use the mold. Marion & Co. mainly used the Elephant & Crown mold.

Now, a person who was in contact with Michael Patton at the time told me the next part. It is a bit different from the chronology in which the Endys transfer the mold cups/master die from Paulson to BCC. I'm not saying, though, that the below is absolutely right.

Marion & Co. sells Paulson the rights to the mold and ships them the master hob (die) in 1995. Paulson makes and uses new mold cups. At some point before 2003, Paulson sends the master hob back to Marion & Co. (which had moved to North Miami, FL in 1998). I don't know why the master hob was returned to Marion, but I would like to know. Perhaps Marion never gave up full ownership, and that is why Paulson only made fantasy chips (such as the Scandia line) on the mold.

Michael Patton bought the master hob from Marion in 2003, and used it to make 14 sets (28 mold cups) that were compatible with BCC equipment. He creates the inlaid Riverboats and tournament Speakeasy chips, along with plain web mold chips that he hot stamps.

I had assumed that the the master hob was part of Patton's estate when he passed away in 2018. It seems that @Potsie1, however, does not have the master hob. I'm hoping that he, BGinGA or someone else, knows more about this story./

 

[Potsie1]

I'd question whether MS Patton ever had a master hob. Here is his classified from chiptalk when he was looking to sell the mold. You would think there would be some mention of it.

 

[Potsie1]

Was he selling these cups knowing he could make more later? Wish I knew and wish I could get those 4 cups back.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I'd question whether MS Patton ever had a master hob. Here is his classified from chiptalk when he was looking to sell the mold. You would think there would be some mention of it.

Yes, it does seems a little odd for Patton to be selling just the mold cups in 2011, if he had the master die too. Maybe Marion still has the master die.

Does anyone know anything about what went on between him and BCC for him to stop using the mold with them?

Also, a while ago I came across this ChipBoard post from Robert Einsenstadt from 11/18/1999. He seems to indicate there that Marion retained control of the mold, and that Paulson was using it with Marion's permission. His post, though, could be clearer.

 

[Potsie1]

Does anyone know anything about what went on between him and BCC for him to stop using the mold with them?

Pretty sure he stopped using the mold when they stopped selling direct to the public.

 

[Potsie1]

Yes, it does seems a little odd for Patton to be selling just the mold cups in 2011, if he had the master die too. Maybe Marion still has the master die.

Does anyone know anything about what went on between him and BCC for him to stop using the mold with them?

Also, a while ago I came across this ChipBoard post from Robert Einsenstadt from 11/18/1999. He seems to indicate there that Marion retained control of the mold, and that Paulson was using it with Marion's permission. His post, though, ideally would be clearer.

These screenshots from the sale of his Riverboat tourney set on his website shed a little light. It mentions future use of equipment and service to the home market as likely reasons.

 

[CrazyEddie]

It's interesting he says "that has never before been authorized for an inlayed, home use set" since, well, the Paulson Scandias are a thing.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Pretty sure he stopped using the mold when they stopped selling direct to the public.

Do you mean when BCC was bought by GPI (which apparently happened on June 7 2013)? Or had they stopped selling direct even before that?

 

[CrazyEddie]

It's interesting he says "that has never before been authorized for an inlayed, home use set" since, well, the Paulson Scandias are a thing.

Oh, wait! Maybe the key word there is "authorized". Notice what Robert Eisenstadt said:

I was told (and this seems strange) that sometimes the manufacturers are too busy with molds and can't fill new orders, so not to lose business for private chips with "secured" molds, they get permission (and pay a small fee) to use someone else's mold. Paulson told me that their use of the web mold (for the Geo Washington poker chip) was a "mistake." Marion said it was a "fluke." Marion also said they would be using the mold more often.

Paulson's use of the web mold (for the George Washingtons, and presumably also the Scandias?) was "a mistake" and "a fluke". So maybe Michael was alluding to the Paulson home sets being unauthorized, due to some kind of misunderstanding between Paulson and Marion about what Paulson was supposed to be doing with the web molds while they were in their possession?

 

[CrazyEddie]

That would also explain why the Paulson Presidents line and the Paulson Scandia line were made on the web mold, but then remade on the THC mold. Perhaps they had to stop using the web mold once Marion learned about the misunderstanding, but were still making money selling fantasy sets at retail, so they continued producing those two sets they'd designed but switched to a mold they had full control over.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

There is a bit to unpack from this confusing statement from Patton;
“When pre-production tests [of the T-mold] did not return what we expected, and the manufacturer decided to discontinue servicing the “retail” market, we decided to break out our “Web” mold that has never before been authorized for an inlayed, home use set.”

So in the first part he is saying that BCC stopped making chips on proprietary molds for the retail market, but then they went ahead to make Web mold chips for him to sell on the retail market.

In the second part, someone "authorized" their use to make a home use set. Is he talking about himself, BCC, or a licensed casino supplier like Marion?

 

[redwine]

I found @Jeff in Iowa 's post really helpful so I translated into a more readable format

 

[Statesvegas]

Good resource