KK early tournament spot (2 Viewers)

[MrBo]

Last monthly game of this local league I play in. I managed to run very well this year and have already clinched the top spot and final table chiplead going into this game, so this one was all about just adding points/chips and obviously trying to win the biggest piece of the monthly prize pool. 2 tables of 9 players to start, no one out at this point as we go into the 2nd or 3rd hand of the 2nd level, blinds at 50/100. Hero has a little under 11k (from 10.5k start) and covers Villain by maybe 500 at the most.

Overall, table is mostly passive and on the looser side early on, but tightens up a ton in later stages. Villain is a new player, totally unknown, and I've only seen him limp into a pot here or there and check-call a bet or two, nothing noteworthy. He's definitely not totally new to poker.

Villain opens UTG to 200. Laggy MP player calls, Hero is in SB with and makes it 700. Tight-passive BB player flats. Villain calls. MP folds.

2300 in pot. Flop is as dry as they come: Hero leads out for 1150. BB folds. Villain announces a call, then says "650?" quickly realizes the actual bet and casually completes the call.

4600 in pot. Turn is the . Hero bets 1700. Villain makes remark to guy next to him who helps run the game and must have invited him something like "what'd you say about not busting out first?" and then announces all-in.

Hero...?

Feel free to critique any part of the hand. Thanks in advance!

 

[detroitdad]

It appears he has aces. However at this stage of the hand on not going anywhere. If your felted. Say nice hand and join the cash game

 

[colter ripton]

I would say you were a little light with your pre flop bet. I would have made it 1000 to 1200 out of the sb. you don't really want to play Ks 4 handed...... other than that everything else seems fine. I think it wold be very unlikely for him to have aces given the pre flop action. A set of js 7s or 2s is what your worried about. You have 40 percent of your chips in the pot now you can certainly still fold and wait for a better spot if you think he has a strong hand. The only thing you can really beat is an ace jack that he is overplaying. I would say fold probably and see wait for a better spot

 

[Jimulacrum]

4600 in pot. Turn is the . Hero bets 1700. Villain makes remark to guy next to him who helps run the game and must have invited him something like "what'd you say about not busting out first?" and then announces all-in.

Hero...?

Fold.

Unknown Villain who hasn't shown any maniacal tendencies is unlikely to have less than one pair in this spot. We've shown strength all the way, and he's choosing to risk his stack on the end against that.

In support of folding, I will add that Villain's quip comes very close to the super-strong "raise plus an excuse" tell. Combined with his line itself, I think that calling with kings here would be a big mistake.

 

[MacGrad]

I would say you were a little light with your pre flop bet. I would have made it 1000 to 1200 out of the sb. you don't really want to play Ks 4 handed......

This.

If he's not new to poker, then I would rule out Aces and Kings based on his min-raise UTG -- and I would have reraised as if he had made a standard 300-400 raise.

My gut reaction is that Villain has a drawing hand (T9) or Queens, and that the flush draw on the river has spurred him to action. He thinks he has the best hand now, but is afraid of the flush.

With no idea which side of the equation you're on, I'd be folding... and, until you get a better read on Villain, I'd be trying to play pots against others in the league (assuming Villain can't make it to your final table) -- don't let the one-timer impact your standings vs the rest of the league.

 

[WillAndrew]

You played like you have an overpair. He's trying to buy out that overpair with a drawing hand. Take his ass out!

 

[pltrgyst]

I very rarely comment on strategy threads, but: one tourney rule I swear by is: never ever bust out early calling with one pair. Never.

 

[Trihonda]

Sounds like we are facing a set... Time to move onto to a better spot. Fold.

 

[Blaster]

Seems like he has Aces, or a set , possibly of Jacks.
Villian phrases like " Oh well, I may just go home early" or similar, just as he overbets the pot all in, are a serious alarm bell / red flag.
This may not be a fold in a cash game, but it is at this stage of the tournament...

 

[MrBo]

I agree my pre-flop sizing was a bit too small... probably should have gone more in the 800-1000 range being OOP. Generally against this group I any reasonable sized 3-bet pre either ends the pot or goes heads-up. Overall there is a lot more limping and min-raising (even min-raising over multiple limpers) than 3-betting. Large raises are usually big pairs that "didn't want to see a flop", and I've seen plenty of guys flatting raises with KK, QQ, AK before.

I was very surprised by the BB flatting in this hand. He tends to play very few hands of a pretty tight range. I put him on 99+, AQ, AK, and I put Villain on right around the same range... maybe some AJ's in there. If Villain plays similarly to others I don't really see him showing up with hands like T9s. Not ruling out 77/88, but most players in this game would limp middle pairs in EP at this stage of the tournament. After he called the flop bet I narrowed his range down more so to JJ, QQ, and maybe 77, AJ, or TT. I agree the "looks like I'm going home early" type of comment generally signifies strength.

Any thoughts on Hero taking a different line after the flop betting? Maybe check-calling to pot control and allow Villain to over-value his QQ/AJ holdings?

 

[Blaster]

Any thoughts on Hero taking a different line after the flop betting? Maybe check-calling to pot control and allow Villain to over-value his QQ/AJ holdings?

You're out of position, and you generally lose information checking and letting him take the lead post flop.. let him react to your bet..

 

[colter ripton]

Re read the original post......

I didn't realize villian was the original raiser I thought he had limped utg. This makes me think more along the same lines as you. QQ JJ or AJ.....10 10 seems less likely.... I don't think he's shoving the turn with 1010 unless he's a really bad player....

of diamonds seems very possible.....

I don't like checking the turn...... you are usually ahead and need to make them pay if they are drawing or if they have QQ or something to that effect.

It's a tougher spot than I originally thought.... he's either got the set of jacks or you are ahead by a pretty good margin. if he has QQ you have him crushed, but is he really shoving QQ there?

Gotta come down to the read.....The speech is usually a bad sign though......I still think it's a fold early in the tourney, but its closer than I thought before.

 

[Blaster]

... I'll add that , villian is playing horribly, if, near the beginning of the tournament, where you both have full stacks of over 100BB's, he's re-raising & over betting all-in, risking his tournament life , if he can't beat your single pair . , And he would deserve to be the 1st out ..

 

[colter ripton]

I would agree with that.......he's either a terrible player, or you are well behind.

 

[onerand]

The speech, if genuine, is a bad sign, as Jim pointed out. On the other hand, people do funny things in these tournaments. A good time to engage villain in conversation.

 

[MrBo]

A good time to engage villain in conversation.

Funny you should bring this up. I had been pretty sick this past week and lost most of my voice the day before. Was still trying to rest it at this point and hadn't said a word other than a few "hey"s at the beginning.

Villain did not appear nervous or seem to really be ready to leave; was staring blankly at the board cards.

 

[kirchhausen]

What hands might V be playing this way that you beat? jd10d, jd9d, possibly any AJ, maybe Ad2d if he is looser than you describe? Maybe QQ? That's about it. Everything thing else in his range is crushing you - 22, 77, jj, 9d10d, maybe AA.

You still have about 65bb, more than enough to keep going in this tourney.

 

[kirchhausen]

so did you tank this long IRL?

 

[SemiNumerical]

Fold,

If you think you have an edge fold. If you think you are outclassed by the players and won't get any better spots, shove.

 

[moojersey]

Villain has top top. I'm shoving and going with it like the fish I truly am!!!!

 

[MrBo]

Fold,

If you think you have an edge fold. If you think you are outclassed by the players and won't get any better spots, shove.

I was thinking the former, and the fact that I'd have plenty of chips behind to keep playing with. If it was a less nitty game, like a casino donkfest with rebuys and plenty of cash game options I'd probably snap call.

Given the reasons above and lack of info about Villain I decided to fold and showed the kings. Villain showed QQ of course. In my mind it was either that or JJ, maybe AJ or 77.

 

[MoscowRadio]

This is a strange line to me for QQ. My original thought when I read the OP is that you are either way ahead or way behind. The way he played the hand was almost like he was holding a mid pocket pair and with BB calling he got the odds to call.

My first thought (and I know this has been stated) is that the pre-flop 3-bet was too small. It doesn't seem like Villain would be the type of player to raise J8 or worse UTG.

My second thought was that the 8 on the turn will almost never do anything to improve Villain's hand, so it seemed suspicious to me when he shoved that card.

However, I don't disagree with a fold here with 65 BBs left behind. It's hard to imagine this particular villain overplaying TP/TK here, so it did feel like a way ahead/way behind situation.

 

[Morneplaine]

I think QQ is the worst hand he will ever show up with here unless he is really bad
we are beaten by his range fold no regrets

 

[MrBo]

Agree with both of the above and feel pretty good about my fold, especially since I had chips behind to still work with (unfortunately I went on to run a little card dead, other than 2 AK's, neither of which worked out and I was first out anyways).

I do think that, in a vacuum, a better (larger) pre-flop sizing that goes 3-handed to the flop as it did here would've probably resulted in an SPR that would've made bet-folding the turn pretty bad and long-term exploitable. As I sad before, if this was a casino tourney with plentiful cash games or rebuys available, the chips would've most likely gone in fairly quick.