Play 10,5 off suit with me (1 Viewer)

[Gunnar]

So we are playing 100/200 deep (1/2$)

8 players and there have been a little of straddles.

SB
BB
Straddle 500
Hero Re Straddle 3000
Folds to BB that calls
UTG Villain calls

We look at

We call,

BB villain stack is around 100.000
Utg Villain is around 80.000
Hero is around 200.000

Pot is 9100
Flop is

BB Check
Utg bet 5000
Action on us

 

[Gunnar]

BB is a fairly straight forward player
UTG is a young LAG but has been showing some great lines and few bluffs.

 

[Mojo1312]

So we are playing 100/200 deep (1/2$)

8 players and there have been a little of straddles.

SB
BB
Straddle 500
Hero Re Straddle 3000
Folds to BB that calls
UTG Villain calls

We look at

We call.

BB villain stack is around 100.000
Utg Villain is around 80.000
Hero is around 200.000

Pot is 9100
Flop is

BB Check
Utg bet 5000
Action on us

Hero checks pre-flop.

 

[CraigT78]

I've played with you before.

We jam.

What's the run out?

 

[Gunnar]

Spoiler: Next steps

Pot is 9100
Flop is

BB Check
Utg bet 5000
Action on us
We call, all other fold.

Turn is

Pot is 19100

Villain checks
Action on us

 

[Legend5555]

My first thought is why straddle to 3000 causing the stacks to be so shallow? Just gamble?

 

[Gunnar]

My first thought is why straddle to 3000 causing the stacks to be so shallow? Just gamble?

I like my chances to outplay most players at the table post flop, if I raise my straddle I’m almost always getting a one caller. So for me it is showing a loser image than I’m really playing and at the same time creating more hard spots for the standard player.

 

[ekricket]

My first thought is why straddle to 3000 causing the stacks to be so shallow? Just gamble?

My first thought was “why play 10 5 off suit?”

 

[Legend5555]

My first thought was “why play 10 5 off suit?”

Well he had no choice in this instance because of the straddle.

 

[Legend5555]

I like my chances to outplay most players at the table post flop, if I raise my straddle I’m almost always getting a one caller. So for me it is showing a loser image than I’m really playing and at the same time creating more hard spots for the standard player.

It's easier to outplay people when deeper. When stacks are shallow like this (33bb, 27bn, 66bb), you are making it very easy for people to not make mistakes because of how shallow they are.

The way this usually works on favor of better players is letting the others make the large straddled and raising limpets who don't want to commit "so much money" pre, even though it's not "so much" compared to the new blind size. Straddling to 15bb when you are going to be out of position is a straight up losing play unless you are MILES better than everyone else. Which is fine if your primary goal isn't necessarily profit. Even straddling the button is usually a losing play. But at least you have position and and should only be committing 2-2.5bb. but 15bb?

A big reason I profit so much in my 1/3 game is people straddling to $10-20 and then folding pre to my raises, or getting overly involved when I have strong hands. And I'm NOT the one doing to straddling unless I win the rock.

I'm all for people giving action for they want to. But if be careful about assuming you can overcome putting in 15bb blind out of position even with a skill edge. I'm not sure it's possible.

 

[JustinInMN]

I don't see any reason to do anything but call here. As the initial straddle the villain surely has some 6x in his range (A6, 86, 76, 65, maybe 64 are all possibilities in addition to the case 66), not to mention better Tx. (I would say he could have at least T8+, maybe down to T7.) He's either bluffing or he isn't. But I don't see where raising for value is worth anything at this point. If hero raises, he pretty much folds out all villain bluffs that would continue later in the hand, but get called by everything that's better than a ten with a five kicker, with the possible exception of exactly 77-99. (And assuming he wouldn't 3-bet a re-straddle with these.)

That said, I hate all of the metagame justifications for this straddle. Wreaks too much of hero needing to prove he can win any hand he wants which is absolutely not necessary if hero is the better player post flop. What hero is actually doing is spotting the opposition too much advantage pre-flop by putting 15BB in blind on any two cards.

This is fancy play syndrome and very spewy version of it at that. Though I predict hero will come out ahead in this pot in the end.

 

[maloviz]

Spoiler: Next steps

Pot is 9100
Flop is

BB Check
Utg bet 5000
Action on us
We call, all other fold.

Turn is

Pot is 19100

Villain checks
Action on us

Spoiler: Turn Response

At this point I just want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. If we think UTG will bluff big on the river if we check back that might mean putting in a small bet now so that if UTG only calls they will check the river (with better) hoping we bet again, or check giving up. Another (worse imo) option could be check turn and fold to anything that isn't a tiny bet on the river (unless of course we spike another 5). Either way I feel like our top pair, no kicker is beaten by too much to take any sort of aggressive line.

I'd love to hear how others feel about my thought process though. I definitely don't claim to be a good player but this is my rationale.

Edit: Put my response to the turn in a spoiler

 

[JustinInMN]

Spoiler: Next steps

Pot is 9100
Flop is

BB Check
Utg bet 5000
Action on us
We call, all other fold.

Turn is

Pot is 19100

Villain checks
Action on us

Guess I better put my response in a spoiler too.

Spoiler: Spoiler Response

This card changes nothing given there is already a pair on board above hero's kicker. If villain has a 6 hero is still dead to catching a ten. If villain has a ten he almost surely has a better kicker still. Depending on how good the kicker is depends on how many chop outs there are.

However, villain checking tends to have me discounting a villain six. I imagine he would go for 3 streets of value with such a holding. I wouldn't rule out a Tx though and he's planning to check-call with it.

I would check behind, same reasoning as on the flop. If villain has air and has given up on the flop, then the bet does us little good other than folding out unpaired hands for protection. If the villain is bluff catching with some value he surely has hero beat and will beat hero for the max.

 

[Gunnar]

Common guys... Fancy play syndrome, spewing and what not. Part of playing poker is playing the table. When you find your self in a game in the middle of the night where there 4 drunk guys calling everything and re-buying constantly you find a way to exploit that. Ofcourse straddle is never a better play than to not straddle if we are looking at it purely from solvers or what ever we want to use.

But when the fishes clap, celebrate and cheer you on when you straddle you are keeping them happy and increasing the odds of a rebuy when they bust out. It is also a game of playing the players not just the cards.

In addition to that I had tells on at-least two guys that liked to bluff from time to time so having bigger pots where I could check out of position and get paid good value when I had the hands to bluff catch.

ps, out of 7 players at the table there was an average straddle and re-straddle to 2000-3000 from 6 players it was no just me, I was just playing a part of gamble heavy game.

 

[Gunnar]

I'm all for people giving action for they want to. But if be careful about assuming you can overcome putting in 15bb blind out of position even with a skill edge. I'm not sure it's possible.

In a standard table I don't have that much of a skill edge and then I dislike to straddle, in this table on payday madness I multiplied my buy-in by 7... Was it luck or did I just read the table correctly in a soft game. Time will tell...

 

[JustinInMN]

Common guys... Fancy play syndrome, spewing and what not. Part of playing poker is playing the table. When you find your self in a game in the middle of the night where there 4 drunk guys calling everything and re-buying constantly you find a way to exploit that. Ofcourse straddle is never a better play than to not straddle if we are looking at it purely from solvers or what ever we want to use.

Believe what you will, but this is spotting 15BB to inferior opposition by taking any two cards. The occasional 2BB straddle can be overcome easily with good post flop play, especially if you are being part of the group helping others get the action, But I don't think anyone has post-flop strategy good enough to overcome a 15BB re-straddle blind preflop. I'm not saying you have to nit it up by any means to satisfy a solver, if the game is loose, play the role by all means.

However, this "strategy" is so extremely loose, villains can almost beat it by random chance with little skill. Over the short term with some deck help, I surely concede it's possible to catch a massive heater this way. But long term, this "strategy" puts hero in a position to play too many big pots with bottom 50% hands and a disadvantage opponents can almost beat by accident.

 

[Mike Wells]

My first thought was “why play 10 5 off suit?”

Bro, that's the best hand in poker. You can make...every...straight.

 

[Gunnar]

Believe what you will, but this is spotting 15BB to inferior opposition by taking any two cards. The occasional 2BB straddle can be overcome easily with good post flop play, especially if you are being part of the group helping others get the action, But I don't think anyone has post-flop strategy good enough to overcome a 15BB re-straddle blind preflop. I'm not saying you have to nit it up by any means to satisfy a solver, if the game is loose, play the role by all means.

However, this "strategy" is so extremely loose, villains can almost beat it by random chance with little skill. Over the short term with some deck help, I surely concede it's possible to catch a massive heater this way. But long term, this "strategy" puts hero in a position to play too many big pots with bottom 50% hands and a disadvantage opponents can almost beat by accident.

I know what you are saying and I hear you. But it is not like I straddled every hand and at the same time it evens out when 5 other players are also doing it. I appreciate the feedback and concern for a said leak in my game but in that lineup I think it was okey to occasionally help fuel the madness that was going on.

 

[Gunnar]

Pot is 9100
Flop is

BB Check
Utg bet 5000
Action on us
We call, all other fold.

Turn is

Pot is 19100

Villain checks
Action on us

Here I think Villain either has it or not, If I bet small here and get called I can save me some money on the river.

I bet 8000
Villain barely thinks about it and calls.

River card is

Pot is 35.000
Villain shoves for 60K ish
We cover him with 180K ish left

But are we making that call?

 

[JustinInMN]

I know what you are saying and I hear you. But it is not like I straddled every hand and at the same time it evens out when 5 other players are also doing it. I appreciate the feedback and concern for a said leak in my game but in that lineup I think it was okey to occasionally help fuel the madness that was going on.

Well I appreciate that this is occasional.

 

[JustinInMN]

I bet 8000
Villain barely thinks about it and calls.

River card is

Pot is 35.000
Villain shoves for 60K ish
We cover him with 180K ish left

But are we making that call?

Well the good news is hero just outdrew villain if he had 10x. This makes no difference if villain had 6x. This is an overshove on villain's part which makes the pot odds only 3:2 for hero, and this makes this bet very polarizing. I can't imagine villain will ever put hero on a 5 or a 6 too often, so this is either a bluff, or he is trying to get max value when hero holds 10x.

The open shove seems bluffy to me, if it's not a bluff, then villain was trappy on the turn. But I think it's a bluff often enough that hero needs to call, even at the high price and the lowish pot odds. Villain could also be over-valuing a Tx here also, again just assuming hero will almost never have a 5 or a 6 as played.

 

[maloviz]

Pot is 9100
Flop is

BB Check
Utg bet 5000
Action on us
We call, all other fold.

Turn is

Pot is 19100

Villain checks
Action on us

Here I think Villain either has it or not, If I bet small here and get called I can save me some money on the river.

I bet 8000
Villain barely thinks about it and calls.

River card is

Pot is 35.000
Villain shoves for 60K ish
We cover him with 180K ish left

But are we making that call?

Pocket 10s and pocket 6s are discounted because of how villain played and the fact that there are only 1 combo of each remaining. That pretty much just leaves the villain having a 6 in his hand for a better boat, a 10 that didn't improve, or complete air.

It's definitely possible and they could have played a 6 this way. The "barely thinks about it and calls" on the turn could be massive strength. In their mind they could be thinking that they are only beat by 10-6. And I'd they hold the 6 of spades they could assume you don't have 10- suited.

This is definitely one of those situations that just disgust me in poker. Boat over boat is probably what's going to happen but when you're in these situations folding is so hard.

 

[JustinInMN]

It's definitely possible and they could have played a 6 this way. The "barely thinks about it and calls" on the turn could be massive strength.

Yeah, this was definitely the part that gave me some pause. But then the open-shove for nearly twice pot certainly looks like an attempt to buy it, I don't know what villain could put hero on that would call that sizing if villain truly has 6x. But maybe villain doesn't think in those terms, either. In the end the question is if hero is good 40% of the time. That's good enough to call. Given the possibility of bluffs and overvaluing 10x I think hero has enough to call. But I am with you in this regard, I am somewhat expecting to be shown a 6.

 

[Gunnar]

I agree with the quick call on the turn might be an aim of strength. But if we think about it like the villain, why go all-in not just bet 20.000 if you want a call? If you don´t want a call then also why not bluff 20.000. What hands are calling 20.000 but not the all-in?

He straddles to 500 and I restraddle to 3000 and he just calls I think 1010 are not likely here. A10 suited maybe, 66 maybe, 67 suited? A6 Suited? Is he pot committed preflop to call with 6x suited with me behind?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I dont fully agree that quick call is massive strength, usually looks like medium strength to me; no thought of raising or folding. Hit a pair and gained a little showdown value after taking a shot at a bloated pot on flop? A5s? Overshove knowing itll look ugly, hoping to fold out a 5?

 

[JustinInMN]

He straddles to 500 and I restraddle to 3000 and he just calls I think 1010 are not likely here. A10 suited maybe, 66 maybe, 67 suited? A6 Suited? Is he pot committed preflop to call with 6x suited with me behind?

Revisiting preflop, since he is a player willing to straddle in the first place, it's fair to say he's not making any marginal laydowns. Also remember, by the time the action got back to him, there was a BB caller, meaning the pot was laying him 3-1 and he closes the action. His preflop range should be more than wide enough to have hands like 86, 76, 65, and maybe even 64. It also has a lot of Tx as well in fairness. And it also has a lot of air. But to the main point, I would never rule out a healthy portion of 6x given the preflop action.

But if we think about it like the villain, why go all-in not just bet 20.000 if you want a call? If you don´t want a call then also why not bluff 20.000. What hands are calling 20.000 but not the all-in?

This is the paradox. You have to decide if your villain being as loose and unstudied as you initially said, is thinking in these terms or not? It might be a simple as villain thinking "I have a 6 and now a full house, I slowplayed the turn, but now I will just bet it all in case the other guy can call." I would surely size it down in villain's shoes with a 6x (and with bluffs, I don't think I ever have 2x pot river shoves in my strategy, tbh ), but your villain may not think the same as a villain like me would.

 

[Gunnar]

You have to decide if your villain being as loose and unstudied as you initially said,

Loose aggressive and some great lines the info I have on him. He has been caught bluffing in the session but Im not sure he would overbet-bluff a pot to buy it. Im thinking here either this is a very well played 6x that is trying to get max value out of it, or it is air and he is getting tired and is willing to lose his stack and go home.

After some deep thinking I think he must have the six, I fold and show the 5. He is not happy about that fold and shows the 6, he left shortly after. It was a though fold and a correct one this time. But I can only blame myself for getting into this position by that re straddle.

 

[JustinInMN]

After some deep thinking I think he must have the six, I fold and show the 5. He is not happy about that fold and shows the 6, he left shortly after. It was a though fold and a correct one this time.

Well good laydown then. Looks like you made a good play based on your read. I know I always assign at least some possibility that overshove on the river can be a "spontaneous bluff" when a player gets to the river with a hopeless hand and figures "only one way to win it." It is polarizing, players doing this are usually close to the nuts or turning their hand into a bluff to represent the nuts. But since your read is that villain doesn't make this play as a bluff, then interpreting the check-call on the turn as strength makes some sense to inform the river laydown.

On an aside, I am guessing villain is surprised you show up with a 5 here. I would guess the only 5x you as hero can end up with is exactly T5, and maybe A5 that you decided to float, given you called a flop bet with no 5 on the board at that point. Given that, the overshove doesn't make a lot of sense for value either as I said above, but it turns out that's what it was.

Revisiting the turn though, you probably could have checked behind and then called a river bet for about the same amount that you lost. (Unless he was going to overshove what would be 4x pot or so). This line would enable you to win some showdowns on the occasions villain is bluffing air on the river. Checking the turn may also inspire more bluff attempts at the river.

But still, good river read.

 

[maloviz]

Loose aggressive and some great lines the info I have on him. He has been caught bluffing in the session but Im not sure he would overbet-bluff a pot to buy it. Im thinking here either this is a very well played 6x that is trying to get max value out of it, or it is air and he is getting tired and is willing to lose his stack and go home.

After some deep thinking I think he must have the six, I fold and show the 5. He is not happy about that fold and shows the 6, he left shortly after. It was a though fold and a correct one this time. But I can only blame myself for getting into this position by that re straddle.

Nice fold. Don't know if I could have done it. Definitely the smart play though.