Is a recession coming? Sell stocks? (1 Viewer)

I would buy airlines over cruise lines as both have been pummeled equally. I can see the recovery in the airline sector being much faster than cruises.

Another buy sector is oil & gas. There are several energy companies with smart pricing models who will not be impacted in this price war/reduced demand situation. The recovery may be slow but you can be earning a 7% dividend while you wait.

But I don't think we're near the bottom yet.
 
[QUOTE="CantSpellPoker, post: 1024654, member:] Not discounted enough, given that they are all tanking an additional 20%-25% on the day today. I guarantee there are lots of unqualified people out there doing day trading of individual stocks, thinking they're buying low on dips, that are losing their shirt. I messed around with very basic and limited day trading a few years ago when I had first gotten into the market, and I learned that lesson pretty quick. Luckily I got away cheap and haven't been tempted since.
[/QUOTE]

Boo to day trading. But, yea, to great opportunities to get into blue chip names at good discounts. Both issues (virus and oil) should be short-term so we should see a recovery. But, when?
 
Every recession has a downturn catalyst... a straw the broke the camels back. Word on the trading floors is that there was pent up uneasiness with valuation and everyone was looking for a reason to sell. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss this as a small correction and not the beginning of a change in long term sentiment.
 
Great timing by me [/sarcasm]. Figures, I put my "spare" poker roll into an aggressive mutual fund a month ago. As of today, I've lost the equivalent of ~100 hrs of winnings. C'est la vie.
 
After a New Deal, that is :D

There will be an aggressive push by Congress and the Executive to provide support and lifelines to get things back on track. We’ll see if that works in the short, medium or long term.
 
Please do not mistake drops in pricing for stock markets as the same as drops in market groups or individual stocks.

You can be "lazy" and buy broad market indexes or widely diversified mutual funds. Lazy means you don't do any homework to learn what might be changing that devalues the firm.

But you are very unwise to be buying specific stocks under high levels of duress without doing solid research. Let me offer some examples.

You youngsters might not realize this, but most of the airlines of the 1960's went broke or got sold cheap to other airlines. Most airlines never earned back their capital cost to open. It might seem prudent to buy airline stocks when they are beaten down, but first you have to decide if they are going to survive at all. 75% off could be a bargain but it also could be buying a corpse.

The cruise industry is a lot more profitable than the airlines. But even there, you should be digging into the books of the company and reading the fine print footnotes. Someone with a looming cash shortfall could easily be driven into bankruptcy while the fundamental business is sound.

There are going to be wholesale failures in the oil patch. No company's dividend is assured safe. It is quite unlikely many companies are prepared for this huge a drop in oil prices. Plenty of exploration companies are "walking dead" right now. Shale production is a high leverage, quick in and out sort of business. Pretty much they are all going broke. The huge production companies aren't so risky, but sooner of later the dividends will come under pressure. I offer a specific warning about Aramco, just say no, no yield, no assurance of accurate financials, risk of self dealing and/or conflicts of interest with management.

So what does homework mean? In general it means reading three years+ worth of reports with particular focus on the debt structures and unused lines of credit. If this isn't your professional expertise, you likely don't have the skills. If you think you can outsmart the professionals without similar skills, then YOU are the sucker at the table. Some of these distressed industries are going to see significant restructuring at greatly reduced pricing. You do not want to be on the wrong side of this sort of merger / buyout.

You need to know what you are doing when bottom feeding off specific companies. Really! Otherwise, stick to indexes and mutual funds. Timing the market is risky enough. Trying the same with specific companies is foolish unless you know what you are doing.

Keep in mind that I am old enough to remember Dow Jones 1,000 was considered crazy optimism. I was trading when the 1987 crash happened. DJ 2,300 fell to 1,500 in a month - that was a 35% loss in five weeks. The great recession saw the market drop from 14,000 to 7,000, 50% in 18 months from fall 2007 to spring 2009.

This is "the first rodeo" for many investors. You might not fully grasp how bad things can be or for how long. It is also true, a properly diversified, long term investor never lost money in these bear markets so long as they had time to let the market recover. Trading market dips is not for everyone, or even most people. The learning curve can be expensive and steep with no assurance you'll do any better than losing your ass.

Trade with your "fun money". Put idle money to work eventually, 0.5% a year on a ten year treasury note is a certain loser due to taxes and inflation. Buy the market, close your eyes and wait till your golden years.

DrStrange
 
Please do not mistake drops in pricing for stock markets as the same as drops in market groups or individual stocks.

You can be "lazy" and buy broad market indexes or widely diversified mutual funds. Lazy means you don't do any homework to learn what might be changing that devalues the firm.

But you are very unwise to be buying specific stocks under high levels of duress without doing solid research. Let me offer some examples.

You youngsters might not realize this, but most of the airlines of the 1960's went broke or got sold cheap to other airlines. Most airlines never earned back their capital cost to open. It might seem prudent to buy airline stocks when they are beaten down, but first you have to decide if they are going to survive at all. 75% off could be a bargain but it also could be buying a corpse.

The cruise industry is a lot more profitable than the airlines. But even there, you should be digging into the books of the company and reading the fine print footnotes. Someone with a looming cash shortfall could easily be driven into bankruptcy while the fundamental business is sound.

There are going to be wholesale failures in the oil patch. No company's dividend is assured safe. It is quite unlikely many companies are prepared for this huge a drop in oil prices. Plenty of exploration companies are "walking dead" right now. Shale production is a high leverage, quick in and out sort of business. Pretty much they are all going broke. The huge production companies aren't so risky, but sooner of later the dividends will come under pressure. I offer a specific warning about Aramco, just say no, no yield, no assurance of accurate financials, risk of self dealing and/or conflicts of interest with management.

So what does homework mean? In general it means reading three years+ worth of reports with particular focus on the debt structures and unused lines of credit. If this isn't your professional expertise, you likely don't have the skills. If you think you can outsmart the professionals without similar skills, then YOU are the sucker at the table. Some of these distressed industries are going to see significant restructuring at greatly reduced pricing. You do not want to be on the wrong side of this sort of merger / buyout.

You need to know what you are doing when bottom feeding off specific companies. Really! Otherwise, stick to indexes and mutual funds. Timing the market is risky enough. Trying the same with specific companies is foolish unless you know what you are doing.

Keep in mind that I am old enough to remember Dow Jones 1,000 was considered crazy optimism. I was trading when the 1987 crash happened. DJ 2,300 fell to 1,500 in a month - that was a 35% loss in five weeks. The great recession saw the market drop from 14,000 to 7,000, 50% in 18 months from fall 2007 to spring 2009.

This is "the first rodeo" for many investors. You might not fully grasp how bad things can be or for how long. It is also true, a properly diversified, long term investor never lost money in these bear markets so long as they had time to let the market recover. Trading market dips is not for everyone, or even most people. The learning curve can be expensive and steep with no assurance you'll do any better than losing your ass.

Trade with your "fun money". Put idle money to work eventually, 0.5% a year on a ten year treasury note is a certain loser due to taxes and inflation. Buy the market, close your eyes and wait till your golden years.

DrStrange
Question for everyone I suppose. As a household, we have limited knowledge regarding most things financial. Stock market, our personal portfolios - hell, we can’t even really gain an understanding on the tax and legal implications of stock options as a key employee living abroad. It’s a mess and we’re not super great at untangling, but we’re not stupid either, we save, and let professionals do what they do.

The question is, after getting our affairs in order and really understanding our options, any recommendations on where to start? Online publishings to read, podcasts to listen to that wouldn’t be above our heads? The big time primary bread winner in our home is 36, and we’re both looking to retire pretty early, but I’d rather just not stick our heads in the sand til then. Any suggestions once we get a strangle hold on our current position?
 
Please do not mistake drops in pricing for stock markets as the same as drops in market groups or individual stocks.

You can be "lazy" and buy broad market indexes or widely diversified mutual funds. Lazy means you don't do any homework to learn what might be changing that devalues the firm.

But you are very unwise to be buying specific stocks under high levels of duress without doing solid research. Let me offer some examples.

You youngsters might not realize this, but most of the airlines of the 1960's went broke or got sold cheap to other airlines. Most airlines never earned back their capital cost to open. It might seem prudent to buy airline stocks when they are beaten down, but first you have to decide if they are going to survive at all. 75% off could be a bargain but it also could be buying a corpse.

The cruise industry is a lot more profitable than the airlines. But even there, you should be digging into the books of the company and reading the fine print footnotes. Someone with a looming cash shortfall could easily be driven into bankruptcy while the fundamental business is sound.

There are going to be wholesale failures in the oil patch. No company's dividend is assured safe. It is quite unlikely many companies are prepared for this huge a drop in oil prices. Plenty of exploration companies are "walking dead" right now. Shale production is a high leverage, quick in and out sort of business. Pretty much they are all going broke. The huge production companies aren't so risky, but sooner of later the dividends will come under pressure. I offer a specific warning about Aramco, just say no, no yield, no assurance of accurate financials, risk of self dealing and/or conflicts of interest with management.

So what does homework mean? In general it means reading three years+ worth of reports with particular focus on the debt structures and unused lines of credit. If this isn't your professional expertise, you likely don't have the skills. If you think you can outsmart the professionals without similar skills, then YOU are the sucker at the table. Some of these distressed industries are going to see significant restructuring at greatly reduced pricing. You do not want to be on the wrong side of this sort of merger / buyout.

You need to know what you are doing when bottom feeding off specific companies. Really! Otherwise, stick to indexes and mutual funds. Timing the market is risky enough. Trying the same with specific companies is foolish unless you know what you are doing.

Keep in mind that I am old enough to remember Dow Jones 1,000 was considered crazy optimism. I was trading when the 1987 crash happened. DJ 2,300 fell to 1,500 in a month - that was a 35% loss in five weeks. The great recession saw the market drop from 14,000 to 7,000, 50% in 18 months from fall 2007 to spring 2009.

This is "the first rodeo" for many investors. You might not fully grasp how bad things can be or for how long. It is also true, a properly diversified, long term investor never lost money in these bear markets so long as they had time to let the market recover. Trading market dips is not for everyone, or even most people. The learning curve can be expensive and steep with no assurance you'll do any better than losing your ass.

Trade with your "fun money". Put idle money to work eventually, 0.5% a year on a ten year treasury note is a certain loser due to taxes and inflation. Buy the market, close your eyes and wait till your golden years.

DrStrange
Counterpoint: YOLO and gambling is fun.

But seriously, this is very, very good advice. Just go market. I like FCNTX, it’s tech/growth heavy.
 
Question for everyone I suppose. As a household, we have limited knowledge regarding most things financial. Stock market, our personal portfolios - hell, we can’t even really gain an understanding on the tax and legal implications of stock options as a key employee living abroad. It’s a mess and we’re not super great at untangling, but we’re not stupid either, we save, and let professionals do what they do.

The question is, after getting our affairs in order and really understanding our options, any recommendations on where to start? Online publishings to read, podcasts to listen to that wouldn’t be above our heads? The big time primary bread winner in our home is 36, and we’re both looking to retire pretty early, but I’d rather just not stick our heads in the sand til then. Any suggestions once we get a strangle hold on our current position?
Bitcoin





:ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 
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Question for everyone I suppose. As a household, we have limited knowledge regarding most things financial. Stock market, our personal portfolios - hell, we can’t even really gain an understanding on the tax and legal implications of stock options as a key employee living abroad. It’s a mess and we’re not super great at untangling, but we’re not stupid either, we save, and let professionals do what they do.

The question is, after getting our affairs in order and really understanding our options, any recommendations on where to start? Online publishings to read, podcasts to listen to that wouldn’t be above our heads? The big time primary bread winner in our home is 36, and we’re both looking to retire pretty early, but I’d rather just not stick our heads in the sand til then. Any suggestions once we get a strangle hold on our current position?
My advice to literally everyone

-Take advantage of tax shelters like 401K (retirement) and 529 (kids education)...you pay tax once instead of twice

-Stocks have more expected growth, but also much more variability vs bonds. Need the money within 5 years? Consider sacrificing some expected earnings and going with safer bonds. Got 10+ years to wait it out? Stocks are likely the best long-term play

-Diversify sectors/companies so that you minimize your risk of ruin. Index funds do a great job of this. This also means try and not hold too big of a position in a company you work for whenever possible

-Tax- you pay your regular tax rate on the gain/loss if you held the investment less than a year. You only pay 15% capital gains tax if you hold it more than a year. Hold your investments more than a year.
 
My advice to literally everyone

-Take advantage of tax shelters like 401K (retirement) and 529 (kids education)...you pay tax once instead of twice

-Stocks have more expected growth, but also much more variability vs bonds. Need the money within 5 years? Consider sacrificing some expected earnings and going with safer bonds. Got 10+ years to wait it out? Stocks are likely the best long-term play

-Diversify sectors/companies so that you minimize your risk of ruin. Index funds do a great job of this. This also means try and not hold too big of a position in a company you work for whenever possible

-Tax- you pay your regular tax rate on the gain/loss if you held the investment less than a year. You only pay 15% capital gains tax if you hold it more than a year. Hold your investments more than a year.
Lol the annoying part is I’ve tried to go down this road many times, and it seems life circumstances or newborns or something comes up that drives our focus away.

We do a pretty good job of these basics, and the reason I want to look more into this is because of how much gets put away into retirement via 401(k) that we’re not directly overseeing or aggressively trying to make gains on. It probably wouldn’t hurt to ensure and tighten up in these areas as we start to creep out and look to see if there’s any adjustments we’d like to make.
 
The tax rate on qualified dividends plus long term gains is ZERO for many people.

In 2020, the $80,000 of gains are tax free, from $80,000 to $496,600 it is 15% and 20% on amounts over that.

It is worth the effort to game the taxes to soak up as much of that tax free income as possible. Short term gains can easily be taxed a rather high rates, but have no taxes if you can wait out the year. This can include not using a tax deferred retirement account in some cases, which goes against conventional wisdom but still can be the right move sometimes.
 
Please do not mistake drops in pricing for stock markets as the same as drops in market groups or individual stocks.

You can be "lazy" and buy broad market indexes or widely diversified mutual funds. Lazy means you don't do any homework to learn what might be changing that devalues the firm.

But you are very unwise to be buying specific stocks under high levels of duress without doing solid research. Let me offer some examples.

You youngsters might not realize this, but most of the airlines of the 1960's went broke or got sold cheap to other airlines. Most airlines never earned back their capital cost to open. It might seem prudent to buy airline stocks when they are beaten down, but first you have to decide if they are going to survive at all. 75% off could be a bargain but it also could be buying a corpse.

The cruise industry is a lot more profitable than the airlines. But even there, you should be digging into the books of the company and reading the fine print footnotes. Someone with a looming cash shortfall could easily be driven into bankruptcy while the fundamental business is sound.

There are going to be wholesale failures in the oil patch. No company's dividend is assured safe. It is quite unlikely many companies are prepared for this huge a drop in oil prices. Plenty of exploration companies are "walking dead" right now. Shale production is a high leverage, quick in and out sort of business. Pretty much they are all going broke. The huge production companies aren't so risky, but sooner of later the dividends will come under pressure. I offer a specific warning about Aramco, just say no, no yield, no assurance of accurate financials, risk of self dealing and/or conflicts of interest with management.

So what does homework mean? In general it means reading three years+ worth of reports with particular focus on the debt structures and unused lines of credit. If this isn't your professional expertise, you likely don't have the skills. If you think you can outsmart the professionals without similar skills, then YOU are the sucker at the table. Some of these distressed industries are going to see significant restructuring at greatly reduced pricing. You do not want to be on the wrong side of this sort of merger / buyout.

You need to know what you are doing when bottom feeding off specific companies. Really! Otherwise, stick to indexes and mutual funds. Timing the market is risky enough. Trying the same with specific companies is foolish unless you know what you are doing.

Keep in mind that I am old enough to remember Dow Jones 1,000 was considered crazy optimism. I was trading when the 1987 crash happened. DJ 2,300 fell to 1,500 in a month - that was a 35% loss in five weeks. The great recession saw the market drop from 14,000 to 7,000, 50% in 18 months from fall 2007 to spring 2009.

This is "the first rodeo" for many investors. You might not fully grasp how bad things can be or for how long. It is also true, a properly diversified, long term investor never lost money in these bear markets so long as they had time to let the market recover. Trading market dips is not for everyone, or even most people. The learning curve can be expensive and steep with no assurance you'll do any better than losing your ass.

Trade with your "fun money". Put idle money to work eventually, 0.5% a year on a ten year treasury note is a certain loser due to taxes and inflation. Buy the market, close your eyes and wait till your golden years.

DrStrange
This is fantastic advice at anytime, Thank you.

Realize that even top Investment professionals struggle to beat the S&P net of fees.
 
OK - it is likely too late to sell. @Darson 's original post from last summer identified a hedge fund manager selling out in anticipation of a market failure. This guy was a bit premature, but today he looks really smart. Based on the close of 3/12/2020 the markets are down ~26% from their highs on 2/19/2020 < - 26.7% for the S&P500 and -25.3% for the Nasdaq > I think we have more losses to endure, but I would be more inclined to buy rather than sell if I had to choose one or the other.

For what it is worth, I generally don't pay much attention to the Dow Jones Industrial Average. The S&P 500 and Nasdaq provide a more reasonable snapshot for the larger capitalization companies.

I think the prospect of a recession is far higher than three weeks ago. But the market tends to price that in pretty quickly. However, this time around there is a sizable chunk of the population that leans hoax over real problem. We will likely find a market bottom only after this question is resolved. < If "hoax" turns out to be the case, then the market lows will be behind us. >

The mere fact we don't have anyone arguing "buy the dip" is a bullish sign. When fear > greed, then we have an environment becoming for favorable for a buyer vs a seller. I'd be even more encouraged to be buying if we start seeing people posting about the sky is falling, sell, sell, sell.

Soon . . . . . -=- DrStrange
 
I think my buddy is just smart - he's an insider and knows the personalities that drive the market. He could see it was overheating so bailed. He couldn't predict the cause or the timing but knew that something would eventually cause a correction.

Mnuchin calls coronavirus pandemic 'a great investment opportunity'

With last year's bonus received and tax refund on the way, I'll be loading up on Disney and a few others in the coming months.
 
I hit my first buying point, S&P down 32% or 2,300. I have five equal tranches in mind, roughly 4% apart.

Next buy point 2,160. I will "day trade" on up spikes, selling at S&P 2,500. only "day trading" on random variation, not real news that the worst is behind us. This is intended to be a long term investment.

Don't take any advice from me, who knows if a random person on a poker message board is worthy of following. Make your own decisions. But don't panic. Do your own research.

DrStrange
 
I've averaged down on one oil & gas stock but I don't have much in it anyway - it's my high risk/high reward punt.

Facebook just hit their 52week low - I'll definitely be picking up some more. Other than Apple (which I've had for a while), my best performing stock is Amazon - I'll be picking up some Amazon soon if it sustains below 1750. With online sales booming and their cloud services

But I'm not buying yet - I see at least a month more downturn in the markets, if not more. Despite what Jim Cramer says ;)
 
So I've been thinking and I know this is a dangerous thing. I have a chunk of my 401k in bonds and I'm debating if this would be the time to stick it back into the market. Isn't the whole point of having bonds to insulate you from market crashes like this? Then shouldn't you use that insulated money to help boost the recovery upside? I'm also thinking of changing my paycheck contribution to not add any bonds for a while. Anyone have any thoughts? A re-balance should be the minimum I do.
 
So I've been thinking and I know this is a dangerous thing. I have a chunk of my 401k in bonds and I'm debating if this would be the time to stick it back into the market. Isn't the whole point of having bonds to insulate you from market crashes like this? Then shouldn't you use that insulated money to help boost the recovery upside? I'm also thinking of changing my paycheck contribution to not add any bonds for a while. Anyone have any thoughts? A re-balance should be the minimum I do.

How old are you and when are you going to tap that money?
 
How old are you and when are you going to tap that money?
44 and not for at least 15 years, probably 20. Also, I have other assets for retirement so my 401k is not my only retirement planning (currently about 25% of my savings).
 
He is plenty young enough . . . . at least he looked that way at the Alamo meat-up.

I think yes, change the directive for your paycheck contributions for the second quarter and on-going.

The purpose of diversification is to smooth out variation without greatly reducing your returns. Moving money from bonds to equities will likely increase your variation, both for good and bad outcomes. It is impossible to say what the next few months will mean for equity markets.

If it were me, I would wait a quarter and see how things have gone. This recession / depression isn't going to resolve itself in a couple of months. Even if things were doing somewhat better, the bulk of the gains will be years in the future. As an alternative, you could move the money in a couple of tranches if desired. In any case, this is a fine situation to be highly imbalanced with your long time horizon.

You know what free financial advice is worth . . . . nothing -=- DrStrange
 
He is plenty young enough . . . . at least he looked that way at the Alamo meat-up.

I think yes, change the directive for your paycheck contributions for the second quarter and on-going.

The purpose of diversification is to smooth out variation without greatly reducing your returns. Moving money from bonds to equities will likely increase your variation, both for good and bad outcomes. It is impossible to say what the next few months will mean for equity markets.

If it were me, I would wait a quarter and see how things have gone. This recession / depression isn't going to resolve itself in a couple of months. Even if things were doing somewhat better, the bulk of the gains will be years in the future. As an alternative, you could move the money in a couple of tranches if desired. In any case, this is a fine situation to be highly imbalanced with your long time horizon.

You know what free financial advice is worth . . . . nothing -=- DrStrange
Well said @DrStrange.
 
I have been more than happy to sell "mutual funds" just before the corona-virus crisis started.:D
Negligible sum, but still the first sound financial move I made in my life:LOL: :laugh:
If you 're not a shrewd and well-informed professional (most probably with inside information), stay away from pure capitalism.
Government bonds only (and only if the Government is the US; still the only Government in the world capable of turning toilet paper into money). - [Germany will not allow this for Europe 'cause it just ain't right religiously, so we can all starve in righteousness].
Otherwise, gold in a bank safe, or poker chips (the latter at your own risk):)
 
Depending on your risk tolerance, you seem way too young with too long a time horizon to be in bonds at all. Bond are (or should be) for giving you "guaranteed", fixed income that is relatively secure, compared to equities. Do you need that income now? Probably not if its in a 401k, which is designed to allow you to build and compound gains over a long period of time, as I see it. I can't imagine you're getting a very impressive return, and if you are then you're in the "junk" range, which is substantially upping your risk of default, particularly now. As usual, hard to disagree with anything @DrStrange says in this thread. No idea when this resolves itself, but the bottom probably isn't too far away; now to 2-3 months? Getting up from the bottom will take a bit longer, but in the 2008/2009 crisis I think it was a little more than a year after the lows it had made up 100%. You just don't know. Breaking it down into 10% chunks and moving them in every week or so seems like good advice. And, that and .50 gets you nothing more than .50 these days.
 
Poker chips will (re-)gain value when humans feel sure they 'll survive physically and have a job (NOT the case currently).
 

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