You make a good argument.
In a raked home game should the host play? (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter JamesOwnz
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Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Thanks!
In my experience in talking with my poker buddies, they would all rather pay a rake than any other sort of fixed charge like a door charge, or a cash out hold back, or seat charge. Rake tends to go unnoticed during a game. Even at the $7 rake at the local casinos here people seem to say they don't notice in the flow of the game.
Mental Nomad
Full House
There's a reason most card rooms and online systems use a rake... it generally gets the most acceptance from the player base at any given level of collection, and it tends to fairly apportion the cost - that is, you only suffer the rake in hands you play, and you never worry about how many hours you paid for.
I agree with most of your points, but not this one. It affects everyone. Even losing players win their share of hands, but every win is a little smaller when raked. The rake takes away from them and makes them go bust faster, just as the rake takes away from the winners. Arguably, the rake affects the losers more, because they play more hands than the better players do.
Still, it's probably the most palatable way for the players to "pay for" the game. If only it weren't explicitly against the law in so many states...
I agree with most of your points, but not this one. It affects everyone. Even losing players win their share of hands, but every win is a little smaller when raked. The rake takes away from them and makes them go bust faster, just as the rake takes away from the winners. Arguably, the rake affects the losers more, because they play more hands than the better players do.
Still, it's probably the most palatable way for the players to "pay for" the game. If only it weren't explicitly against the law in so many states...
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
You are right that it does effect the losing players when they win a hand. But for the most part if they are going bust an extra $10 to $20 isn't changing that. Who it effects more is the guy that busted him as he now has less than he would have otherwise. So the winningest prayers are really paying it twice! Which is why the winning players would much rather pay a flat fee at the door.
Mental Nomad
Full House
Or another perspective:
As a winning player, I'd rather pay it at the door for a different reason.
I routinely watch habitual losers over-bluff and err as they push money back and forth between themselves. I, meanwhile, wait for a real hand to then take some of their money.
Every time they push money back and forth, they lose another rake... the more they lose, the less is left for people like me to win. I don't mind paying the rake on my take, as much as I mind the rake eating away at the fish moving the money around.
As a winning player, I'd rather pay it at the door for a different reason.
I routinely watch habitual losers over-bluff and err as they push money back and forth between themselves. I, meanwhile, wait for a real hand to then take some of their money.
Every time they push money back and forth, they lose another rake... the more they lose, the less is left for people like me to win. I don't mind paying the rake on my take, as much as I mind the rake eating away at the fish moving the money around.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Bergs, the degree you put out there is not what's being discussed. The degree I am responding to is where someone hosts routinely charges a mandatory rake each hand and is making money off the game. That being said, I'd imagine you still disagree, which is fine. I'm just talking about where I'd play.
To the OP. Playing a in a home game where the host is raking, it really depends on the situation. If it's friends playing where the host takes a rake is a situation where I would feel comfortable to play in. If they're running a game with multiple tables, multiple dealers and raking for pure profit, then it's more of a casino environment where I may not feel comfortable with the host playing due to conflict of interest.
bergs
Royal Flush
So I'm sort of thinking about 4 categories:
- No rake at all
- Rake or seat / entrance fee to pay for dealer
- Rake or seat / entrance fee to pay for dealer and/or other host expenses
- Rake (basically only per pot - not entrance or seat fee) designed to help the host turn a definitive profit
I actually agree with you on point 4, not really not on point 3, and I think point 2 and point 1 are largely interchangeable as it's normally left up to the players as to whether they want a dealer with rake or not.
If you're playing NLH only I think you may be able to get away with tips only, but the circus games (even regular PLO rotations) make it tough to be fair to a dealer. They just aren't getting to spread enough hands to make tips-only worth it financially for them.
In regards to all 4 scenarios - personally I'm OK with the dealer playing in scenario 1 (no rake) obviously but generally not in the the other ones. Scenario 4 I wouldn't normally play in anyway but if I did and the dealer plays, I'm racking up. Scenario 2 and 3, my inclination is to table change but I guess it depends on who it is and how tight I am with them.
I dealt for one local player (now deceased) who ran a mixed game (he also played) with a standard $100 buy-in -- players would receive only $95 in chips for their first buy-in, with the $5 rake going towards the supplied food and drinks. All reloads got full value in chips. Dealers worked for tips, with a minimum guaranteed by the house.
At one point, he also occasionally ran a minimally-raked game -- $1 per $5 capped $2 at $10 (no flop, no rake). Food, drink, and dealer were paid from the rake (dealer tips were optional).
bergs
Royal Flush
I dunno, my beer is pretty good....(I've never charged an entrance fee though. I charge $20 at the BBOTB for food/drinks/etc that includes soda, water, BBQ, but you still end up spending significant amounts of money out of pocket that doesn't get reimbursed when you host a meetup).
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
This is the thing I think of the most when I think "I wouldn't want to play in a raked game". The Main Event of every meet-up has some sort of "rake" to cover the dinner on Saturday. Even though I believe chippers to be some of the most generous people I've ever met, a donation bucket still does not even come close to the cost of consumables.
So while I would prefer to not play in a raked game, I guess I don't really have a problem with it if the host is apparently not profiting.
This. I host a low limit holdem game once or twice a week, BYO everything although I do often put out some small snacks and give a few beers away throughout the night. My friends and I aren't the most affluent folks, and people appreciate that I don't charge people to play, even though I end up with the mess at the end of the night.
In the case where people are providing dinner/drinks/dealers, I think mitigating that cost is entirely reasonable, though I wonder about raking from everyone if only some folks are drinking, etc. Tipping a dealer seems like a no-brainer, given that they're a dedicated dealer who is good at their job.
At the end of the day, nobody is forced to attend any game. I do things the way I do because that's how my game will run reliably and in good spirits. Provided everyone knows what the deal is at the outset, I see no rationale by which to impeach the morality of the organizer based on what they're taking from the game.
Turner
That's different. If I was at the Saturday of the meetup, I'd have happily forked over $20 for that spread. But that's more of an event. My remark about food was regarding a weekly home game sort of thing.
Imagine what the game of poker would look like today if everybody adhered to your way of thinking?
Explain, please? I play in casinos and card rooms that are overseen by gambling regulators. I play in home games where the host doesn't host the game for profit (they play in the game for profit). Seems to work for me.
I'm with Jeff on this one. I think if the host plays, and there is a take (primarily designed to cover some costs/dealers/etc...), I could consider this a "home game". However, if the game is raked in anyway designed to pull a profit, then this is a business (regardless of where it's held). If it's held in a home, it's an illegal card room, if it's held in a bar, it's an illegal card room, if it's held in some guy's office, it's an illegal card room. That's not to say I wouldn't play in such a game (and I have), but I wouldn't consider them "HOME" games.
To me, a home game is group of people (probably mostly friends) getting together to play cards in a someone's home.
It seems we all have different ideas of what a home game is, and we're just splitting hairs on the semantics.
duecesneverloses
High Hand
I agree the for profit part is what seperates a home game and an illegal cardgame. But splitting hairs here even more. If I ran a game where there is 1 dollar max drop to cover expenses and a dealer. Food and drink are provided for. Single table set up. If after expenses one night the game runs longer and I end up profiting 20 bucks does this turn a home game into an illegal cardroom.
To me its all about the intentions of the host if the guy just wants to provide food and a dealer without intentions of profit I think this is still a home game.
I'd agree with you. I expect most people here would. I'm pretty sure the men with the badges would not.
duecesneverloses
High Hand
Ehhh I'm not risk adverse if I was I would have chosen another hobby. LEO should have better things to do than knock over single table taking lower rake than any casino in recent history. Also ive played in homegames that were raked where one of the guys playing was a current LEO another was retired LEO.
Also stories ive heard about underground cardrooms in NYC say that the games are riddled with police and detectives that play.
I had a game last night. 17 players total (myself included). Had the donation box out as usual. $130 in it. Served two local craft beers on tap, kegs run $100 each. Guys ate 2 packs of hot dog (not sandwiches) $40 including buns. Also finished was a bottle of Jack $40. 8 guys smoked a cigar - $40
So all in - $280ish for this month.
I don't make a hospitality charge mandatory, and tips outside of the donation box were nearly $60, so my players don't mind coughing up the cash for an above average home game. With that said, I'd gladly pay a flat charge to the host. I also don't consider my home game to be anything other than a home game.
So all in - $280ish for this month.
I don't make a hospitality charge mandatory, and tips outside of the donation box were nearly $60, so my players don't mind coughing up the cash for an above average home game. With that said, I'd gladly pay a flat charge to the host. I also don't consider my home game to be anything other than a home game.
12thMan
Full House
Two packs of hotdogs and buns is $40??? Shit, I thought cost of living was bad in the Seattle area....
Hebrew National 20 packs are $12 each, and potato buns are $3.50 a pack!Two packs of hotdogs and buns is $40??? Shit, I thought cost of living was bad in the Seattle area....
12thMan
Full House
Judging by your earlier post, you seem to loathe home games where there is a rake, and to suggest that there is no such thing as a raked home game is a misnomer.
Case in point. Years ago I played in a rake free home game. Two months into the weekly game, the host told everyone that he had to charge us $20 a week to play. He explained that the Father of the owner of the house he lived in told his son that he should be getting a cut from any game where money is involved. The sum that the son decided on was $20. You can imagine how this went over. Ultimately, everyone decided the best way to raise the $20 was to take a $1 rake from every pot that hit $20, ending the rake as soon as the $20 had been collected.
In fairness to the owner's son, he allowed the host to change the dining room into a poker room. We had comfy chairs, a nice poker table, a bathroom down the hall, and a refrigerator for beverages a few feet from the table. He also had a great location with plenty of parking. Collectively, we could have all taken the position that we would not support his home game because a rake would turn it into an illegal card room.
What I find disturbing about your statement is that it nullifies the two primary reasons why people play poker. One, for the social aspect of the game, which a casino cannot match, and two, the chance for profit, which you are more likely to gain from playing in a game that contains recreational players. (Worth noting, the rake casinos impose is usually greater than underground games with dedicated dealers.)
I changed jobs two months ago which has allowed me to play in a regular home game again. These players are super sticky. They won't lay down their hands if they have a draw - they have a hard time folding top pair or a straight when there is three suited cards on the board. My win rate is $35 an hour, despite my playing looser the last two sessions. So far, this has been the most profitable game I have ever played in.
Now hypothetically speaking, I would absolutely continue to play in this game if the host announced that he was going to impose a $1 rake like the one above, capped at $20 per evening, to go towards a poker table and comfortable chairs so we didn't have to play on two cheap card tables butted together with wood seats.
To specifically address your point on a player making a profit from hosting. Would you not play in a weekly 18 to 20 player $50 one hour re-buy tournament where the host takes $75 from the prize pool and holds a rake free $1/$2 game for players who bust out? (The host seldom makes it to the final table, and he rarely re-buys, so technically, the house is making a profit, albeit a small one.)
I appreciate the fact that you have principles, but seriously, don't you think you are limiting yourself from potentially enjoying the game on another level, while opening yourself up to one that could also be quite profitable?
bergs
Royal Flush
These sound fanfuckingtastic.
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