In a raked home game should the host play? (10 Viewers)

To me, the key question is how much rake? That helps you decide if you want to play in that game or go elsewhere. The host playing in it is irrelevant to me.

Some of you that are so high-principled that you won't play in a rake game need to host more. Please provide a dealer, food, alcohol, great chips, cards, and tables, TV's, etc. Oh, and you won't mind if I leave cigarette butts all over your property, spill shit in your kitchen and don't clean up, cash out to the dollar and never tip or donate to costs, right?

I host a weekly $1/1 mixed game that I play in... because I like poker (or used to lol). I rake $1 from each flop to cover expenses. The MOST I make is around $100, and that's if an efficient dealer and the game doesn't start late or end early. I spend $75 on food, another $40 for high hand button bonus at game time to encourage attendance. Then there are the intangibles (garbage bags, new cards, room upgrades, etc). It's mostly a social game and all players must be approved by me and a couple trusted friends. I provide professional dealers who work for tips and they'd rather work my game than their shift at Horseshoe. It must be a successful model because it's been copied at least 7 times locally and by others.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like raked games. But other solutions I've tried and have been suggested here simply don't work.

Donations? lol. Always a problem. Some people are life nits and will never donate even though taking thousands off the game; others will go broke but still leave me $20 cash. The game's future is left to the vagaries of chance and there is inconsistency in the player pool for who is supporting the game.

Tax? Mandatory donation up front or at end of nite or winners pay. This just leaves a bad taste all around imo. It will be a barrier to your game even going. If anyone has a game that's lasted longer than 6 months where this worked, I'd like to know.

If a game rakes too much, I don't play in it. That's true of a couple local places where the host is simply in business. Also, I'm dubious about long-term jackpots or a portion of the rake going for such. What happens when the game is busto in 3 months? Do you think the players get that money back or the host just keeps it?
 
pltrgyst said:
Hmmm. I've never heard Mark mention playing in a raked home game.
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I think he might be referring to the 5/5 NLH/Omaha/O8 game I play in. It is not officially raked, but everyone pitches the host $5 at the start of the game. So far it has been a good investment :cool:
 
I have played in an irregular game in Houston for 35 years. It has an up-front fee for costs, no matter who is the actual host or where we play. The fee ranged from $15 to $35 and covered food, drink, a cleaning service if the game were in someone's home or the cost of venue rentals. The goal was to keep the host from paying out of pocket, not to enrich him or pay for his household goods. The door charge is absolutely not on anyone's radar. It is fair and reasonable to keep the host from paying extra to have us in his home or club.

I host a lot of games. It looks like well over 50 times this year, some with full costs, some with limited costs and some where all I provide is banking, chips and cards. ~25 nights a year I provide a meal, soft drinks and snacks. ~25 nights a year I provide soft drinks and snacks. ~12 nights I just run the game but not the venue. My costs run into thousands of dollars a year, even after considering tips from the players. (to be fair, the players also bring things to add to the snacks / drinks - those contributions add up significantly and are very welcome.)

I am a winning player. The winnings defray the costs and even occasionally provide funds to buy more chips so it is easier for me to say I don't need to charge my friends to come over and play cards once or twice a week. However, I have great sympathy for the hosts who aren't as fortunate / lucky. I am thrilled to have other games to play in and do everything I can to encourage the players to pitch in. For example, I played this week in a game where we broke the informal record for most money tipped - $175 from fourteen players. I did twist the arms of the guys as they cashed out - the host had provided a huge meal, desert, soft drinks and beer. His wife takes it as a vote of thanks to get a pile of money from the poker guys and that makes her happy to welcome us to her home and prepare some tasty home cooked meals.

This it totally different from a for profit raked game. I avoid those as much as possible. There is a night and day difference between a home game where the players keep the hosts costs down and a profit seeking venture run out of someone's home or office. I expect the host to play in his own home game 100% of the time. It is a crazy thought that I'd invite a dozen of my friends to play cards and then sit it out.

But if the host is running a poker business, then he/she needs to be careful about playing in the game. Of course the host might play to keep a table from breaking or starting up the game. However, the host needs to keep in mind the job isn't to play poker, his/her job is to get paid fees from other people wanting to play poker while the host makes the experience as pleasurable as possible. Speaking from a lot of personal experience - - - it can be hard to be a good host and play at the same time, even with only one table in operation. Beyond questions of shady dealing, the host needs to run the game like the business it is and not be playing unless there is a business reason to be sitting at the table rather than taking care of business.
 
DrStrange said:
However, I have great sympathy for the hosts who aren't as fortunate / lucky.
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If these hosts are running games constantly, how do you make them whole??? Speaking for myself, I guess at some point my poker skill needs to turn around to justify my love for the hobby. But if not, I hope there would be someway I could slow down the bleed!!
 
MegaTon44 said:
At my game, I host and play, but don't take a rake, even for food and beverages. Personally, I find playing and raking to be a little grimey, especially if you amass a large stack off the people you are already taking a drop on.
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+1 what Dan said. Especially since I live in VA where taking a rake of any kind makes your home game illegal gambling.
 
Until last night I had never raked my home game. Most of the long running regular home games in the area do take a small rake.

The reason my game was raked last night is that I was supposed to play at a different game that is raked but the host was going to cancel because his wife had to be admitted to the hospital. So instead of not being able to play I offered to have the game at my house. I know all of the players anyways.

My normal game is self dealt. The raked game uses a pro dealer and I must say I liked it a lot more. The game moved much faster, getting more hands per hour in.

I spent over $200 on good booze, beer, dinner, soft drinks and snacks. Also the first 5 players to show up get to throw a dart and getting money equal to the number thrown up to $25 (rake back) to make sure the game starts on time. There were 8 people at the table by 7:05!!! I have never had that for one of my regular home games.

The rake is $1 per hand unless the table is full then it is $2. I told the dealer to turn off the rake at 1am as I was sure my cost was covered by them.

The players don't mind the rake because of everything that is provided by it. They don't have to worry about stopping for beer, or food. They drank a lot more booze for sure! Almost 2 full bottles of good bourbon.

Will I rake in the future, I'm undecided as of right now. I did feel more pressure to make sure everyone was happy than before.

I am a winning player in this group so I have used my winnings to absorb any costs in the past but didn't supply much more than some basic snacks and bottled water and maybe a 12 pack (or what was left of it).

So at the end of the night I cleared an extra $100 or so with the rake. I had more players for this game than the last 3 games I hosted that weren't raked. I had 13 people show up, 2 waited over 2 hours to get a seat!

So the bottom line is if the players feel they are getting value for the money that gets raked they don't have a problem with it. It is finding the right balance.
 
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I don't take a rake per se, but I do hold onto a little from each tournament to pay out a year end bonus. The bonus is paid to the highest finishing eligible player in the final event. You must attend more than 50% of the events during the year to be eligible. Since I host, I'm guaranteed to make 100% of my events. However, there are usually 12 - 15 other players that are also eligible, so it is far from a done deal that I will collect the bonus.

I don't have as bad a poker bug as some others. I don't look to get into raked games, though I know I could get the invites if I asked. I simply like to play with friends. If a friend started to rake his game, it would drop precipitously on my social calendar.

mummel said:
If these hosts are running games constantly, how do you make them whole??? Speaking for myself, I guess at some point my poker skill needs to turn around to justify my love for the hobby. But if not, I hope there would be someway I could slow down the bleed!!
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LOL at making the host whole. Take your chips and throw them down the toilet if you need to turn a profit justify your love for the game. If you love chips, or poker, you would take offence at the idea of flushing your chips. That is all you need to justify your love for the game. People collect many things - comics, stamps, baseball cards - they burn through hundreds or thousands of dollars, never expecting to turn a profit. But you seem to think that you should? What makes you so effin' special?
 
Might be OK as a seat-filler for a very short period of time, but not the entire game,

And I would never again play in a raked game, despite lots of them in NYC, with great many guppies in them.
 
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I host a monthly game, sometimes more than once a month. I ask for donations from the players, suggested $10. This covers the beer (2 kegs on tap, rotating local craft brews), alcohol (good stuff), cigars, and food (chips/dip and hotdogs on a roller). I also have coffee, a fridge full of soda, and water. Several times a year I also rent a fight. Of the 16 guys who play I'll get 13-14 donations. Once guy BYOB his Coors light because he can't stand craft beer, and two others don't eat/drink my stuff. Most guys donate $10 - others $20 or more. I've tracked it and while it helps offset the costs, it does not cover them. I spend $200 - $250 a month on my game and usually get $170 to $180 in my donation box. It helps, it's appreciated, and it's not expected. Most of the guys will also tip me if they have a winning night.

I rake the tournament prize pool $100 if we have 2 tables, and $50 if it's a single table. This goes into our tournament of champions free roll at the end of that year. I keep a running tally on my update emails that shows what the pool is up to.

I rake cash games $1 for every pot over $10 that goes to our bad beat jackpot. The total is updated on my whiteboard after each game.

I do not make any money on either of the above rakes. (Unless I hit the BB jackpot).

To answer the OP - I do play in both my tournament and in the cash game. However I will be the first to sit out if there isn't room for someone who wants to play cash post tournament.
 
So I followed up with some of the players after Friday's game to get feedback about how they felt having a rake but having food and everything provided.

There weren't any complaints. Having a dedicated dealer was a huge plus they said. Here is a short part of a text exchange I had with one of the more outspoken players.

IMG_2717.PNG


So the rake ($2) wasn't even on his radar. He had a great time and said I should keep some form of rake! He was one of the players that enjoyed the whiskey that was made available for the game.

So it seems enhancing the game experience for the players so that all they have to do is show up is worth having a small rake to them, at least with these players.
 
Just curious what is the general thought on the game I provided back on post 25.
 
Mental Nomad said:
Might you get a different response from someone who doesn't drink?
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Definetly possible, but these guys drink!!!

But then again maybe not, because we all know drinking doesn't make for better poker playing. So the sober guys have a huge advantage over the drunk guys that they wouldn't have if the drunk guys weren't drinking. It could easily be argued that that advantage is worth the $2 drop.

One guy bought in for $100 and hit a few sets early and ran it up to over $1k, but went home broke. If his head was right I'm pretty sure he would have folded a lot of the really bad calls he made thinking everyone was trying to bluff him.

Even if they don't drink, everyone ate the food and had soft drinks.
 
Rhodeman77 said:
Definetly possible, but these guys drink!!!

But then again maybe not, because we all know drinking doesn't make for better poker playing. So the sober guys have a huge advantage over the drunk guys that they wouldn't have if the drunk guys weren't drinking. It could easily be argued that that advantage is worth the $2 drop.

One guy bought in for $100 and hit a few sets early and ran it up to over $1k, but went home broke. If his head was right I'm pretty sure he would have folded a lot of the really bad calls he made thinking everyone was trying to bluff him.

Even if they don't drink, everyone ate the food and had soft drinks.
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1 Dollar drop is still 1/5 of what a casino would rake. I personally wouldnt mind a small rake like this as its less than the casino. If it includes food and booze this seems like an awesome deal considering casinos only give you soft drinks and some comp money.
 
It's funny. I'd have more of a problem with a $1/2 per hand drop then paying $20 at the door for food/beverages. Must be a mental thing.
 
Jeff said:
There's no such thing as a raked home game. There's a raked illegal card room in a persons home. Thats different than a home game. I only play in a home game.
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Disagree completely. There are degrees.

Example - we're playing 9 handed in my basement, all friends, known each other for 8+ years. Someone takes their 4th or 5th brutal bad beat of the night and is busto but wants to continue to hang out and drink beers and shoot the shit. We ask if he wants to deal and offer to let him rake $1 per pot (which we wouldn't even miss in our game). He agrees and starts taking a $1 drop for the privilege of not having our drunken asses need to self deal.

Do SWAT teams descend from the roof and throw flash-bangs into my house before kicking in the windows and spraying the place down with rubber bullets?

I've been in raked illegal card rooms. The kind of person that would call the example I laid out above an illegal card room is the same kind of person that turns themselves in at the local constable and asks for the death penalty when they cop to jaywalking the previous day.
 
Yeah, I prefer a fixed up-front hospitality charge, but either way is fine (for me) if there is percieved value relative to the cost.
 
CraigT78 said:
It's funny. I'd have more of a problem with a $1/2 per hand drop then paying $20 at the door for food/beverages. Must be a mental thing.
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I play a lot in casinos so I am used to a 5/6 dollar rake in lots of pots. So paying 1 dollar max seems like a freeroll in comparison.
I understand the rather pay 20 at the door and would be fine with that system as well.
I plan to start hosting my own games in the future and would like to offer food, booze, nice stuff (chips,chairs,cards table). Also dont want to play very often and be the only one sharing the financial burden for things that i am only one of the users of. If we all play together than we can all chip in through rake to keep the place improving and bettering the overall experience of the home game.
 
bergs said:
Disagree completely. There are degrees.

Example - we're playing 9 handed in my basement, all friends, known each other for 8+ years. Someone takes their 4th or 5th brutal bad beat of the night and is busto but wants to continue to hang out and drink beers and shoot the shit. We ask if he wants to deal and offer to let him rake $1 per pot (which we wouldn't even miss in our game). He agrees and starts taking a $1 drop for the privilege of not having our drunken asses need to self deal.

Do SWAT teams descend from the roof and throw flash-bangs into my house before kicking in the windows and spraying the place down with rubber bullets?

I've been in raked illegal card rooms. The kind of person that would call the example I laid out above an illegal card room is the same kind of person that turns themselves in at the local constable and asks for the death penalty when they cop to jaywalking the previous day.
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agreed with Bergs. Definitely degrees here. Just the thought of passing the deal and seeing 7-10 hands an hour is enough to make me not want to play. I'm a table captain so to speak in all the games i play, some people would get annoyed with it in a casino setting (which i would never do). I help make change, i help count stacks... anything I do is completely for the sake of seeing more hands per hour. In the instance we are discussing ITT my intention of having a dedicated dealer is also to get more hands per hour. Paying him is a requirement, hence the small rake.
 
For those opposed to raking a game because they are worried the host is recouping more than expenses, is there no consideration of the fact that in many jurisdictions the host of the game is running the risk of being arrested, prosecuted and potentially having his home and other property seized as a result of the hosting the game? In some places that do permit social, not-for-profit games simply having a dealer who accepts tips makes the game illegal.
 
duecesneverloses said:
I play a lot in casinos so I am used to a 5/6 dollar rake in lots of pots. So paying 1 dollar max seems like a freeroll in comparison.
I understand the rather pay 20 at the door and would be fine with that system as well.
I plan to start hosting my own games in the future and would like to offer food, booze, nice stuff (chips,chairs,cards table). Also dont want to play very often and be the only one sharing the financial burden for things that i am only one of the users of. If we all play together than we can all chip in through rake to keep the place improving and bettering the overall experience of the home game.
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This is why I don't "rake" - but ask for a donation to cover expenses. My neighborhood buddies aren't here to pay for my equipment - but I do expect help covering the consumables. I guess the thought of a rake just rubs me the wrong way as it isn't optional - where a donation at the beginning or end of the night is.
 
duecesneverloses said:
But I also dont think you would be able to find a case where someone running a single table in their own home with a 1 dollar max rake with friends has ever had their home seized.
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I agree and that's why the extremely remote possibility doesn't warrant a giant rake, but it does warrant something.
 
CraigT78 said:
This is why I don't "rake" - but ask for a donation to cover expenses. My neighborhood buddies aren't here to pay for my equipment - but I do expect help covering the consumables. I guess the thought of a rake just rubs me the wrong way as it isn't optional - where a donation at the beginning or end of the night is.
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Difference of opinion. Id love to play in a 1/2 dollar max rake game as its far less than a casino where I play often or online where the rake is higher as well. It would feel like a freeroll playing 60/80% less rake.
 
The $20 at the door to get in has it's draw backs too. I have players that will show up with just a $100 to play for the night. Having to pay 20% of that before they even see a hand is going to make them say no way to the game, and not even show up. With a rake, he is only paying if he wins money.

Or what about someone that goes bust in the first hour. He spent $20 and isn't getting anything for his money now.

A rake is a tax on the winning players. Players that go bust every game, it doesn't effect. Having to pay an extra $20 before they can lose more money could deter the fish from playing. I know I want to keep the fish in the game.
 

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