Hand Analysis - $100/$200/$400 NLHE Home Game (1 Viewer)

Windwalker

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So you're saying you would have called if the kid had the winning hand? This is different than what you wrote earlier (post 61). Or you would have tried folding but the host would have forced you to commit the chips?

I'm saying that I would have likely tried to fold, but the host wouldn't have let me, because of the reasons described above. Since it never came to that, I had not gotten the host's POV on where his head was at.
 

Windwalker

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So you're saying you would have called if the kid had the winning hand? This is different than what you wrote earlier (post 61). Or you would have tried folding but the host would have forced you to commit the chips?

I read through my post you responded to again, and I didn't say a word about what I would have done. I literally just provided the verbatim from both the villain and the host. Where in that did you see me say I would have called if the kid had the winning hand? I was just clarifying that many of the opinions on the thread of the hosts's understanding versus the villain's were true, and the host did have the intention of making me call the all-in if villain decided to stay in the end.

Was that not clear? My post is copied below.

Hi all, sorry for the delay. I was waiting for both the host and the player to call me back so I could verify exactly what was said. Both verified the following. @onerand and others were right, about what would have happened if he left his money in.


From Villain: "You took a long time, and said something like 'I really don't believe you have it, I should be calling.' You waited some more and then finally said, 'I'll make you a one-time offer. I think you missed your pocket 5 draw, and you overbet to take it down.' You showed me your queens. You then said, 'I don't think you can beat this. I should probably call, but if I'm right, you'll lose $380k. If I'm wrong, good for you. But if you want to take your all-in bet back, and give me the pot in the middle, I won't call.' I asked [host name] if that offer was binding, and I could take my money back. [Host name] said 'yeah, that's allowed.' So, I took my money back because it was an impulse bluff. I missed my draw."

From Host: "What I remember is that you offered him a post bet deal to take his money back and give you the money in the middle in exchange for you not calling, we do those kinds of deals all the time. Because he asked me about it, it exposed the strength of his hand, so if he decided to keep his money in, I would have insisted that you make the call of his all-in. But he folded right away, so I didn't have to do that."
 

TheDuke

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I read through my post you responded to again, and I didn't say a word about what I would have done. I literally just provided the verbatim from both the villain and the host. Where in that did you see me say I would have called if the kid had the winning hand? I was just clarifying that many of the opinions on the thread of the hosts's understanding versus the villain's were true, and the host did have the intention of making me call the all-in if villain decided to stay in the end.

Was that not clear? My post is copied below.

I didn't understand what you meant here:

Hi all, sorry for the delay. I was waiting for both the host and the player to call me back so I could verify exactly what was said. Both verified the following. @onerand and others were right, about what would have happened if he left his money in.
 

Windwalker

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Having said what you did, you must call. Alternative is to throw calling chips in a few words into the same speech. Let the kid save face and you look like a magnanimous baller.

Still don’t think it was an angle but he may well have screwed himself into having called the $380K

Yes. Host confirmed that he would have required I call if villain had left his all-in bet in. In the end, He said the only exception to that would have been if I said something like "do you want to chop the pot?" without showing my hand, or asking him to take his bet back, or saying anything about calling. He also pointed out that had I shown my hand, and said "Do you want to take your bet back, and let me take the pot?" without mentioning anything about calling would have been fine, and is considered speech play by him. Mentioning "calling" was the trigger.
 

Eriks

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Well, this hand has to qualify for most interesting hand ever posted on PCF. Super cool to get a peek inside such a game, thanks Krish!

Lesson to take away: ”arbitrary” and ”poker rules” do not mix well. Cool that we got clarification from villain and the host.
 

OfficerLovejoy

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Very interesting read indeed!

And props to the host!
I agree that you'd have to be forced to call here. Otherwise you'd have gotten way too much information without any risc and it would've been rightly called an angle.

Thank you for sharing and allowing a productive and civilized discussion. :)
 

Zajac

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That is correct. The host told me that if the villain hadn't asked him anything and simply said "I accept the deal, let's do it," it would have just ended with that. But, after villain asked host to clarify if it was binding, it gave me enough information to fold, which he wouldn't have allowed. He said that typically, people usually don't say a word when deals like that are proffered, but as you said, it all worked out.

For the record, if the host told me that I was required to call, I would have. The game is fun, friendly and drama-free.
So by making the offer Krish was worse off because of the kid's reaction....

Krish could no longer fold...so he either would lose the max...or win less than the max because of the kid could pull back his bet

If these are the rules....I would not make that offer anymore
 

PlayerADK

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Guys, relax. It’s a home game, where speech play and post bet deals happen all the time. Host does most of those himself.

I wasn’t celebrating the move, I routinely lose $80-$100k pots in that game. Just happens to be something that’s allowed and relatively prevalent in that game, and this is one I remembered because I was involved in it.

This isn’t a casino, this is a bunch of drinking degens who play high stakes. Just thought it was an entertaining hand and a glimpse into the degen that is this game that I play sometimes.
Yeah I loveee home game stuff like this. Makes the game more exciting - if folks don't like it, they don't need to play in the game :p

Such an interesting move - ballsy shove from the new kid, would have been even ballsier if he still chose to stay with the losing hand after piece-mealing it together that your most likely scenario after he chooses to stay is a fold. But if he knows you're the loose-aggressive type, who knows.

It is akin to The Princess Bridge - Battle of Wits hahaha

 

Anthony Martino

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Yeah I loveee home game stuff like this. Makes the game more exciting - if folks don't like it, they don't need to play in the game :p

Such an interesting move - ballsy shove from the new kid, would have been even ballsier if he still chose to stay with the losing hand after piece-mealing it together that your most likely scenario after he chooses to stay is a fold. But if he knows you're the loose-aggressive type, who knows.

It is akin to The Princess Bridge - Battle of Wits hahaha


Plot twist: they both had the losing hand
 

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Wow, I just caught up on this thread (well, mostly anyway). Lots of healthy debate. At the animal house, we pride ourselves on a “no rules, just guidelines” atmosphere. It has actually become a running joke at the game. There is much table talk and many deals made, especially in big o where the prospect of multiple big hands colliding is high. As a host, I would of allowed this table talk/deal. To me, at least based on Krish’s initial post, it sounded like he was simply giving the youngster an opportunity to take his bet back (but I also though Krish was obligated to call if youngster declined the proposal). I didn’t read it as an angle-shot. I can see both sides of the issue thou. I think deals can be a constructive/healthy part of the game so that people don’t get destroyed on any given night. On the other hand, I can see a scenario where deals run rampant and adversely affect the integrity of the game.
 

kirchhausen

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It's time to play along with another interesting hand from the past weekend.

Villain is new to high stakes poker. 22-year old crypto kid, billionaire dad. This is his 4th game with our group. Biggest game he played before that was a $10/$20 NLHE. He's coming off a high of having had an insanely run-good in his 3rd game the previous weekend, with profits of over $750K. He's not super experienced, and tends to break flow and lead out when he has a good hand. Relatively tight, and makes decent decisions. Hero is usual loose-aggressive.

Stacks: H - $380K, V - ~$500K.
Hero is up about $80k, V is up about $100k.

Hero is in the straddle, Villain is UTG+2. 7 handed game, about 3 hours into play. 100/200 with a perma-straddle UTG to $400.

Villain calls straddle. Small and big blinds call. BB is a pro, big cash game player from Vegas. SB is a well-known poker personality, semi-pro. Both are aggressive players.

Hero looks down at :qs::qd:.

Hero?
If he leads out with big hands, and is just calling, he probably doesn't have you beat (yet). Pop it to $3k.
 

kirchhausen

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Continuing, because hero’s action is relatively self evident, and the hand gets really, really interesting after the flop.

Villain is new to high stakes poker. 22-year old crypto kid, billionaire dad. This is his 4th game with our group. Biggest game he played before that was a $10/$20 NLHE. He's coming off a high of having had an insanely run-good in his 3rd game the previous weekend, with profits of over $750K. He's not super experienced, and tends to break flow and lead out when he has a good hand. Relatively tight, and makes decent decisions. Hero is usual loose-aggressive.

Stacks: H - $380K, V - ~$500K.
Hero is up about $80k, V is up about $100k.

Hero is in the straddle, Villain is UTG+2. 7 handed game, about 3 hours into play. 100/200 with a perma-straddle UTG to $400.

Villain calls straddle. Small and big blinds call. BB is a pro, big cash game player from Vegas. SB is a well-known poker personality, semi-pro. Both are aggressive players.

Hero looks down at :qs::qd:.

Pro is eager to play hands with both H and V, and is most likely going to call a small raise with a wide range, planning to outplay on the flop. We need a raise that will fold most of his outer range, like AxS.

Hero raises to $4,800.

Villain calls.
SB folds.
BB Pro takes some time, calls.

Flop is :6s::8s::7d:

BB checks. He has about $200k behind, down about $100k.

Hero?
$14,800 in the hand if the math is right? don't LOVE this flop, but still feel we should cbet most of the time. I don't know what your normal c-bet % of pot is, but I like to bet on the smaller side for pot control (between 35-40%). I make it $5,500 here.
 

kirchhausen

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Continuing.

Villain is new to high stakes poker. 22-year old crypto kid, billionaire dad. This is his 4th game with our group. Biggest game he played before that was a $10/$20 NLHE. He's coming off a high of having had an insanely run-good in his 3rd game the previous weekend, with profits of over $750K. He's not super experienced, and tends to break flow and lead out when he has a good hand. Relatively tight, and makes decent decisions. Hero is usual loose-aggressive.

Stacks: H - $380K, V - ~$500K.
Hero is up about $80k, V is up about $100k.

Hero is in the straddle, Villain is UTG+2. 7 handed game, about 3 hours into play. 100/200 with a perma-straddle UTG to $400.

Villain calls straddle. Small and big blinds call. BB is a pro, big cash game player from Vegas. SB is a well-known poker personality, semi-pro. Both are aggressive players.

Hero looks down at :qs::qd:.

Pro is eager to play hands with both H and V, and is most likely going to call a small raise with a wide range, planning to outplay on the flop. We need a raise that will fold most of his outer range, like AxS.

Hero raises to $4,800.

Villain calls.
SB folds.
BB Pro takes some time, calls.

Flop is :6s::8s::7d:

BB checks. He has about $200k behind, down about $100k.

Right away, the flop isn't great for us, given the limp-call range of our UTG+2 villain. Hero considers a check, but given how tight UTG+2 villain is, and how aggressive BB Villain is, decides on a small-ish bet.

We expect, given his prior plays, for UTG+2 Villain to raise if he has something (like top pair with an Ace, 2 pair or a set), and call if he's drawing. He almost always calls when he's drawing.

We expect BB Villain, given his extreme TAG image for the last 3 hours, to fold if he has air, raise if he's made a big hand like a set or 2 pair, and call if he's on a draw. We think he may also raise with a big combo draw or sometimes bluff the pot, especially if UTG+2 doesn't call.

Checking controls the pot, but doesn't necessarily give us additional information. Or at least, that was the logic I went in with.

Hero bets $5,000.
UTG+2 Villain pauses for a bit, then calls.
BB villain thinks for a second, and then folds.

Turn is :tc:

Hero?
Check here. lets see what develops, I could be check call or check fold based on how i think this guy plays. There is no sense in betting this point. You are rarely if ever getting a worse had to call. There are still some bluffs in Vs range, including Axss, KQss, A5dd, A5cc, A5hh, AT, maybe even KJss, QJss, so i would not necessarily fold if he does bet following a check here.
 

kirchhausen

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Continuing.

Villain is new to high stakes poker. 22-year old crypto kid, billionaire dad. This is his 4th game with our group. Biggest game he played before that was a $10/$20 NLHE. He's coming off a high of having had an insanely run-good in his 3rd game the previous weekend, with profits of over $750K. He's not super experienced, and tends to break flow and lead out when he has a good hand. Relatively tight, and makes decent decisions. Hero is usual loose-aggressive.

Stacks: H - $380K, V - ~$500K.
Hero is up about $80k, V is up about $100k.

Hero is in the straddle, Villain is UTG+2. 7 handed game, about 3 hours into play. 100/200 with a perma-straddle UTG to $400.

Villain calls straddle. Small and big blinds call. BB is a pro, big cash game player from Vegas. SB is a well-known poker personality, semi-pro. Both are aggressive players.

Hero looks down at :qs::qd:.

Pro is eager to play hands with both H and V, and is most likely going to call a small raise with a wide range, planning to outplay on the flop. We need a raise that will fold most of his outer range, like AxS.

Hero raises to $4,800.

Villain calls.
SB folds.
BB Pro takes some time, calls.

Flop is :6s::8s::7d:

BB checks. He has about $200k behind, down about $100k.

Right away, the flop isn't great for us, given the limp-call range of our UTG+2 villain. Hero considers a check, but given how tight UTG+2 villain is, and how aggressive BB Villain is, decides on a small-ish bet.

We expect, given his prior plays, for UTG+2 Villain to raise if he has something (like top pair with an Ace, 2 pair or a set), and call if he's drawing. He almost always calls when he's drawing.

We expect BB Villain, given his extreme TAG image for the last 3 hours, to fold if he has air, raise if he's made a big hand like a set or 2 pair, and call if he's on a draw. We think he may also raise with a big combo draw or sometimes bluff the pot, especially if UTG+2 doesn't call.

Checking controls the pot, but doesn't necessarily give us additional information. Or at least, that was the logic I went in with.

Hero bets $5,000.
UTG+2 Villain pauses for a bit, then calls.
BB villain thinks for a second, and then folds.

Turn is :tc:

So, given Hero has a penchant to overplay large pairs, and is stubborn about his live reads, he’s convinced himself that he is now fully aware and locked in on Villain’s range. Clearly, this has been his public downfall many a time, but has also paid off in other places. The HCL river call against Tom Dwan betting with air comes to mind.

We’re now convinced villain is playing one of the following hands:

Likely: A10s, A3s, A2s, KJs, J10s
Possible: 55, 99, A5s, A9s
Possible, less likely: 89s, A4s, A7s

Of all those, currently only 3 have made his hand, and they fall within the possible and possible, less likely scenario.

Hero decides that villain is mostly likely on a flush draw, and decides to make it an expensive card for villain to get.

Hero bets $30,000.
Villain takes a very long tank, almost 2 minutes. He calls.

River is :js:. (Hero is reminded that is probably time to start coaching again with @Senzrock.)

Hero?
Check fold. The only hands you can beat here are 55, A5 suited (except for spades). Every other pair from 66 on up beats you (except if he also has QQ).
 

kirchhausen

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I don’t think it’s silly at all. It’s certainly debatable. The action was on Krish after an all in. Under normal poker rules, Krish had two choices. Call or fold. Instead, Krish decided to turn the tables on villain and try to force an action or at least get some information. He proposed a deal to the kid, and once the guy asked the host whether that deal was binding/enforceable, his bluff was over. Yes, a mitigating factor is that Krish showed the kid his hand, but I’m never saying a word if I’m villain in that scenario, whether I’m bluffing or not.

Apparently these things are acceptable in this game, and I likely wouldn’t play in it.

Bottom line, some people think Krish was giving the kid a break. That’s certainly possible, but I think there’s a good chance Krish did it for his own advantage. He was able to win the pot without risking his stack. Not allowed in many houses, but apparently it was in this one. Call it whatever you want.
100% Krish did it for his own advantage. He even said he would likely fold if the kid refused the offer (as any sane person who likes money would). Pretty sure Krish was never calling in the spot without the speech talk and the offer.

If things like this are normal in this home game, I guess that's ok, but obviously the new kid hadn't seen that before, so it still feels angle-ish to me, and certainly took advantage of the kid's inexperience.
 

kirchhausen

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I see your point and agree it's debatable. It's certainly the kind of play you'd only see in a high stakes home game and in a casino would be a different story.

The reason I don't consider it angle is that I don't see how Krish gained any advantage here. Primary reasons for that are that the offer was binding and he showed his cards.
Krish won a pretty big pot that he would not normally win, and there was no additional risk. Krish calling was not binding, just the offer. If kid says "no deal", Krish insta-mucks. It was 100% a freeroll.
 

kirchhausen

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Hi all, sorry for the delay. I was waiting for both the host and the player to call me back so I could verify exactly what was said. Both verified the following. @onerand and others were right, about what would have happened if he left his money in.


From Villain: "You took a long time, and said something like 'I really don't believe you have it, I should be calling.' You waited some more and then finally said, 'I'll make you a one-time offer. I think you missed your pocket 5 draw, and you overbet to take it down.' You showed me your queens. You then said, 'I don't think you can beat this. I should probably call, but if I'm right, you'll lose $380k. If I'm wrong, good for you. But if you want to take your all-in bet back, and give me the pot in the middle, I won't call.' I asked [host name] if that offer was binding, and I could take my money back. [Host name] said 'yeah, that's allowed.' So, I took my money back because it was an impulse bluff. I missed my draw."

From Host: "What I remember is that you offered him a post bet deal to take his money back and give you the money in the middle in exchange for you not calling, we do those kinds of deals all the time. Because he asked me about it, it exposed the strength of his hand, so if he decided to keep his money in, I would have insisted that you make the call of his all-in. But he folded right away, so I didn't have to do that."
So if the kid KNEW that you would be forced to call his all-in, definitely not an angle. In fact, you would be giving him a free-roll. The problem is the kid almost certainly did not know that you would be forced to call (as we can see by him asking if the rule was enforceable).
 
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Anthony Martino

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upNdown

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Who cares about the drama - it’s not like anyone is going to think he’s trying to cheat considering he posted the hand and was asking for opinions, and obviously no one is going to deny him a seat in any game.
 

Windwalker

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Okay, der starman, you want to stick it to krish. Get in line.
@Windwalker Krish someone at 2+2 is trying to start drama about you with this HH.

16 year old account made his second post to try to stir up high stakes drama.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/high-stakes-home-game-speech-play-1808553/

Who cares about the drama - it’s not like anyone is going to think he’s trying to cheat considering he posted the hand and was asking for opinions, and obviously no one is going to deny him a seat in any game.

I mean, I guess someone has the time. Not sure what that multi-post accomplishes, maybe he was posting it to get feedback so that he could provide a thoughtful and nuanced response on here, by collating the knowledge from there?

After reading everyone’s feedback and reflecting on it more, since my intent was to fold if he decided not to take the deal, I can now definitely see it as a form of angling. Turns out that it wouldn’t have been allowed by the host anyway, so that’s neither here nor there.

Interestingly, if anyone talks to me before they make a decision, I just sit ex expressionless as possible, just as most people who I do speech play with just sit stoically, and stone-like, so all you’re trying to do is read their body language and see if anything comes of it.

Really great discussion all around, though. Appreciate the feedback and the perspective.
 

PlayerADK

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How Krish should respond:
tenor (2).gif


(this is a joke I don't want to hear y'all bitch at me lol)
 

CrazyEddie

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Interestingly, if anyone talks to me before they make a decision, I just sit ex expressionless as possible, just as most people who I do speech play with just sit stoically, and stone-like, so all you’re trying to do is read their body language and see if anything comes of it.
Nah. If someone "speech plays" at you, play right back! Instead of being a stone and trying to give up nothing, use active defense and throw chaff in their face. Just as effective and way more fun.
 
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