Venturalvn
Full House
Anyone up for a non-tribute GB? I'd be down for pretty much any non offensive design for .53 hybrids.
General Discussion- Taj Mahal Atlantic City Ceramics (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter RiverAce01
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C-Dog
High Hand
What's MOQ?
But effectively, it's 300 total pieces w/ 4 denominations? No denom less than 20?
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
MOQ= minimum order quantity
Mental Nomad
Full House
Language barriers can be tricky. It was never completely clear to me whether it meant:
A) 300-piece minimum on the whole order, with max four denoms, at least 20 pieces each denom
or
B) 1200-piece minimum on the whole order, with a 300-piece minimum per denomination, but if you get four denoms with at least 300, you can add one more with as little as 20 pieces.
I went with the latter interpretation; it met my needs, and it made sense - I'd be surprised for a large-scale manufacturer to take orders under 500 or 1000 pieces total. Nothing I heard later suggested I was wrong.
This is what I'm talking about: Pooling our resources, paying J5 for some kick-ass artwork and doing our own sun-fly oversized thing, all the way through the denoms, tourney and cash.
C-Dog
High Hand
I'm not sure I want 43s (never played with them), but I'd definitely be interested in some custom Sun-Flys. I'd help organize if people want help. I've got references for organizing stuff 
Michael Murphy
High Hand
From being in on and following the (redacted ) group buy closely. it seemed everyone that had handled the 43's liked them. That convinced me, and I was about to change my order when the plug got pulled. So I would be fine with 43's. some were opting for a full set and some wanted only the higher denominations, which was the way I was leaning
Anyway, if a tribute set is off the table because of legal complications I would be good for a well thought out and designed fantasy set.
Anyway, if a tribute set is off the table because of legal complications I would be good for a well thought out and designed fantasy set.
Last time I ordered stock items from Sun-Fly (the Lucid Diamond sample set group buy), the minimum order quantity was listed on the web site as 300 pcs and they actually agreed to produce only 200 total (min 20 per denom) when I inquired.
How big are they? I don't pay a lot of attention to casino chips that aren't clay. Is sun-fly making a lot of casino chips?
The Lucid Diamond (and The Ravenor) stock designs are dye-sub printed on a 39mm ceramic blank with mold markings (that also mimic an inlay area).
The Ravenor Classics include edge-aligned printed spots. All colors and design elements can be fully customized. A custom mold with unique markings runs about $4000.
I'm in, this would be a killer GB. Also wonder if at least 30-50-ish people would additionally put up 2-3%ea of the cost of a custom mold designed by the artist to complemented the label. Might be pushing it, but either way: Who wants to run this? Let's do it.
leebert123
High Hand
I'm basically just a random outside observer at this point as I'm not really sure how much interest I would have in these but with the tribute sets all being shut down maybe you guys should consider not necessarily making tributes to a specific casino but making up your own.
I'm sure one of the designers on here could do an excellent logo and inlay for a made up casino, The Empire or The Oasis or something generic along those lines.
From there why not run some polls and use current / classic Vegas chips as the color and edge spot inspiration. I saw a poll on the forums of everyone's favourite dollar chips. Do the same for most denominations and see what people like.
A set with a fictional casino name and logo but featuring a $1 from the flamingo, a $5 chip based on the old Hacienda chips, a $25 with the Bellagio colors and spots might be something that the general group could get behind.
I'm sure one of the designers on here could do an excellent logo and inlay for a made up casino, The Empire or The Oasis or something generic along those lines.
From there why not run some polls and use current / classic Vegas chips as the color and edge spot inspiration. I saw a poll on the forums of everyone's favourite dollar chips. Do the same for most denominations and see what people like.
A set with a fictional casino name and logo but featuring a $1 from the flamingo, a $5 chip based on the old Hacienda chips, a $25 with the Bellagio colors and spots might be something that the general group could get behind.
FDLmold
Royal Flush
You can make a tribute set, you just need to make sure the trademarks are expired, which means nobody is enforcing them and no lawyers will send you letters. For instance, if you look up Silver Slipper or Thunderbird Casino at the USPTO, there are no live trademarks for those and the words are free to use. Somebody out there may already be using them for all I know.
Artwork is different than words. Generally that is up to the artist or company that created it to enforce protection, I think. For artwork from the 50s and 60s from closed casinos without trademarks, those are pretty safe. IMO, I would not want to copy artwork for a tribute chip, but to create new artwork inspired by older artwork I think is dandy.
Artwork is different than words. Generally that is up to the artist or company that created it to enforce protection, I think. For artwork from the 50s and 60s from closed casinos without trademarks, those are pretty safe. IMO, I would not want to copy artwork for a tribute chip, but to create new artwork inspired by older artwork I think is dandy.
I don't like the idea of copying Clay edge spots on ceramic chips. You have to pay more to have them edge-aligned, and that never comes out perfect. But more importantly, you're ignoring the biggest advantage to the ceramic chip - that you can print ANYTHING you want, ANYWHERE on the chip.
The real challenge here is finding an artist, nay, A VISIONARY, who can maximize the medium - do something amazing with printing on the outer rim of the chip that compliments the label in the center. DONT JUST COPY CLAY EDGE SPOTS, OR THOSE GOOFY BUD JONES MARKINGS!
CREATE SOMETHING ORIGINAL AND AWESOME!!!!!!!!!
Mental Nomad
Full House
Two side notes:
1. I agree with upNdown that it's good to consider all sorts of alternatives to an aligned edge pattern, and you're not constrained to mimicking edge spots when designing ceramics. However, I disagree with the idea that it's a shame to do aligned edge spots... avoiding edge spots just because one can avoid edge spots is just as silly as insisting on using them! In all honesty, I've nearly always found aligned patterns to look better on chips on the table, especially aligned patterns with strong edge spots. Un-aligned patterns usually look too busy and messy on the table, to me.
2. It's worth considering that in development, before it became the Trump Taj Mahal, it was the Taj Mahal, and the project was actually begun in 1983 by Resorts International. The project was running into trouble, and then James Crosby died in 1986, and his estate sold off the properties and Trump won the bidding in 1987, taking over the project and completing the Taj (with name inserted), which finally opened in 1990. This means that if people want to consider this a tribute to the "original" Taj, the Group Buy is free to imagine whatever art, logos, and chip designs are in fitting with the Taj Mahal theme, and not limited to the art that was used from 1990 onwards, and still be "authentic" It would be nice if someone could find original art that predated Trump's involvement, but I don't know that any is easily available... and if it were, it's not unlikely that it's the same general art without the word Trump on it, which means we probably should still use different art.
On the plus side, there are no shortage of India-themed art and patterns that could potentially be used.
1. I agree with upNdown that it's good to consider all sorts of alternatives to an aligned edge pattern, and you're not constrained to mimicking edge spots when designing ceramics. However, I disagree with the idea that it's a shame to do aligned edge spots... avoiding edge spots just because one can avoid edge spots is just as silly as insisting on using them! In all honesty, I've nearly always found aligned patterns to look better on chips on the table, especially aligned patterns with strong edge spots. Un-aligned patterns usually look too busy and messy on the table, to me.
2. It's worth considering that in development, before it became the Trump Taj Mahal, it was the Taj Mahal, and the project was actually begun in 1983 by Resorts International. The project was running into trouble, and then James Crosby died in 1986, and his estate sold off the properties and Trump won the bidding in 1987, taking over the project and completing the Taj (with name inserted), which finally opened in 1990. This means that if people want to consider this a tribute to the "original" Taj, the Group Buy is free to imagine whatever art, logos, and chip designs are in fitting with the Taj Mahal theme, and not limited to the art that was used from 1990 onwards, and still be "authentic" It would be nice if someone could find original art that predated Trump's involvement, but I don't know that any is easily available... and if it were, it's not unlikely that it's the same general art without the word Trump on it, which means we probably should still use different art.
On the plus side, there are no shortage of India-themed art and patterns that could potentially be used.
Venturalvn
Full House
I agree with both @upNdown and @Mental Nomad here.
I do agree that mimicking clay edgespots doesn't appeal to me. The appeal to me from the [redacted] GB was that they were BJ like chips (and they felt better.)
If we were going to do unaligned edgespots, I'd just as soon pay less and go ceramic, since the whole thing about hybrids to me is that they mimic BJ chips, which for me would include aligned spots to feel like BJ molds with inlays.
I do agree that mimicking clay edgespots doesn't appeal to me. The appeal to me from the [redacted] GB was that they were BJ like chips (and they felt better.)
If we were going to do unaligned edgespots, I'd just as soon pay less and go ceramic, since the whole thing about hybrids to me is that they mimic BJ chips, which for me would include aligned spots to feel like BJ molds with inlays.
Venturalvn
Full House
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Sometimes you can mimic edgespots, and not mimic edgespots at the same time. Mimicking edgespots does not prevent the use of of a design that takes advantage of the ceramic-full-face printing concept.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Mayby @Puzzlemonkey would like to use his design. I think these could be a great groupbuy. I like the hybrid chips, but not sure how much change would be needed of it it could be pulled off and still keep the incredible design he came up with.
My argument wasn't very well thought out. I'm opposed to ceramics imitating clays, and that alignment point was a poor one thrown in to try to support the main point.
I think the zombie chips above are a great example of what can be done with ceramics. And even though I don't like Clay-imitation, I think all chips are better with edge spots.
I think the zombie chips above are a great example of what can be done with ceramics. And even though I don't like Clay-imitation, I think all chips are better with edge spots.
OldWestPokerSupplies
3 of a Kind
Don't want to hijack the thread but I thought I would pop in here and offer my help.
We use SunFly hybrids and ceramics.
Can't beat their pricing but shipping is much much cheaper and there's less risk involved as everything is printed in the US.
25 minimum per order (25 per denom).
Free Artwork and Free Prototyping.
Free advice (lol)
Let me know if i can help.
We use SunFly hybrids and ceramics.
Can't beat their pricing but shipping is much much cheaper and there's less risk involved as everything is printed in the US.
25 minimum per order (25 per denom).
Free Artwork and Free Prototyping.
Free advice (lol)
Let me know if i can help.
Venturalvn
Full House
Pricing would help gather interest I'm sure. The 53-cent per chip price was probably the reason the prior hybrid GB had half the 100,000 chips that it had.
...That...and the promise to make us some mixed game plaques to match
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joepro
Flush
I would like an all-43mm set, just please don't call it "Private Cardroom!"
C-Dog
High Hand
This confuses me. So Old West uses SunFly per the top line.
But then in the 2nd line you say everything is safer/cheaper if printed in the US.
So how does one order Sunfly Hybrids printed in the US? Isn't SunFly in China? And if we could have used an American SunFly at the outset, wouldn't that have made more sense anyway?
Or are you offering your own Hybrid, that you produce?
Old West will print the same chips as Sunfly - same blanks, same chips. Their per-chip cost will be somewhat higher though, because they're not a factory in china. You don't need me to explain that part.
The shipping will be cheaper, because again, they're not in china.
As far as the safety/security issue goes, I think the point is more of a concern - that a factory in china might be less likely to protect your designs.
The shipping will be cheaper, because again, they're not in china.
As far as the safety/security issue goes, I think the point is more of a concern - that a factory in china might be less likely to protect your designs.
C-Dog
High Hand
OK I get it, They have the Ceramic Blank from SunFly, but their own printing process. It makes sense now.
Thanks.
I'd imagine using a "local" vendor would have some advantages certainly.
Advantages -- OWPS vs Sun-Fly
ceramic quality: tie (exact same blanks, produced by Sun-Fly)
print quality: tie (although both have their respective proponents)
customization: Sun-Fly (can create custom blanks)
prototypes: tie (although longer process with Sun-Fly for getting physical prototypes)
order speed: OWPS
unit cost: Sun-Fly
shipping cost: OWPS
ceramic quality: tie (exact same blanks, produced by Sun-Fly)
print quality: tie (although both have their respective proponents)
customization: Sun-Fly (can create custom blanks)
prototypes: tie (although longer process with Sun-Fly for getting physical prototypes)
order speed: OWPS
unit cost: Sun-Fly
shipping cost: OWPS
A custom 43mm mold (different center recess diameter with matching diameter labels) was created by Sun-Fly for those projects, which is only available when ordered direct from the factory.
This is really interesting development. (y) :thumbsup:
Has anyone used OWPS for 43mm hybrid chips recently? If so, are they very close to the 43mm BW chips?
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