Tourney Conundrum: newbies slowing down the game (2 Viewers)

[Blind Joe]

I suppose I'm just looking for a bit of advice, although I'm not sure if anything can be done to mitigate this problem.

Trying to grow a game will naturally sometimes mean introducing people to poker who have never played before, and while this in itself is a good thing it can also have a detrimental effect on the game at hand.

On the face of it, tournaments are great for newbies because there is a fixed outlay and a more-or-less fixed duration. I imagine many of us here played our first poker after being invited to a home tournament.

So here's my conundrum: this weekend I had 2 newbies join our table of 7 which already included one fairly new player (though he is pretty much up to speed now). So we were 9 handed and spending quite a lot of time prompting the newbies when it was their time to act, reminding them what actions they had available to them, explaining why they lost or won hands, it was quite frankly a nightmare, although the guys themselves were really great and I do want them to return.

The upshot of all that extra time spent helping the newbies meant our hand count was way down (we weren't making a full orbit in a 20 minute level so probably only playing about 7ish hands) and I think that affected the duration of the tournament (although this could be a mistaken assumption on my part which I'm happy to be corrected on).

Here's the schedule we used:

We had 2 rebuys and finished at L18. I make that around 7BB in play - would I be right in thinking playing more hands per level would have shortened the game somewhat? If so, is there anything I can do besides waiting for newbies to become more conversant with the game to keep things on track. I'd much prefer 4—4½ hours than 5+

I'm starting to see why so many people prefer cash games because you're not constantly trying to keep up with a schedule and usher people along, which can feel more stressful than fun.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

Constant reminders is really all you can do. Maybe hang rules and in bold big red letters, state that action should be done as quickly as possible, showdowns tabled without haste and attention and chatter paid appropriately.
my biggest personal beef is when you get two idiots hiding behind their cards...
The dealer will say “open up”
And then the two players start asking about what each other can beat....
Just show the fucking cards already!

 

[Beakertwang]

@Poker Zombie has a lot of great input on adding newbies.

Your best resource for training new players is a table full of good-natured, we’ll-trained players who help keep things moving.

 

[Eloe2000]

There are plenty of others here more versed than I on tournament structures, but I just wanted to say that I greatly prefer cash games when newbies are involved. I think it is better for the newbies experience so they can observe as much as they want without feeling pressured by the additional tournament structure. Cash is just easier to understand. I think it’s better for the other players as well who appreciate the schedule and routine of the structure. And it’s just better for game play in general.

I have only started a regular tournament season now that we have a full table of experienced regulars. I wouldn’t have the patience coaching newbies at tournament neither would the other players.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I cant speak to the level timing without knowing starting stacks - that's crucial information. But by and large, slower players shouldn't extend the length of the game. Players that limp a lot or don't play hands aggressively can, especially if they are heads-up.

Over the past 11 years we have only had 2 players that still needed prompts by the end of the night. Neither one returned (thankfully), but that's not surprising - if poker isn't their thing, they simply won't want to grasp it.

I also have a card that lists hand strengths (I call it a cheat sheet) for new players, so they only need to refer silently to their card to see where their hand is sitting. It keeps the game moving along.

 

[ekricket]

I suppose I'm just looking for a bit of advice, although I'm not sure if anything can be done to mitigate this problem.

Trying to grow a game will naturally sometimes mean introducing people to poker who have never played before, and while this in itself is a good thing it can also have a detrimental effect on the game at hand.

On the face of it, tournaments are great for newbies because there is a fixed outlay and a more-or-less fixed duration. I imagine many of us here played our first poker after being invited to a home tournament.

So here's my conundrum: this weekend I had 2 newbies join our table of 7 which already included one fairly new player (though he is pretty much up to speed now). So we were 9 handed and spending quite a lot of time prompting the newbies when it was their time to act, reminding them what actions they had available to them, explaining why they lost or won hands, it was quite frankly a nightmare, although the guys themselves were really great and I do want them to return.

The upshot of all that extra time spent helping the newbies meant our hand count was way down (we weren't making a full orbit in a 20 minute level so probably only playing about 7ish hands) and I think that affected the duration of the tournament (although this could be a mistaken assumption on my part which I'm happy to be corrected on).

Here's the schedule we used:

View attachment 383411

We had 2 rebuys and finished at L18. I make that around 7BB in play - would I be right in thinking playing more hands per level would have shortened the game somewhat? If so, is there anything I can do besides waiting for newbies to become more conversant with the game to keep things on track. I'd much prefer 4—4½ hours than 5+

I'm starting to see why so many people prefer cash games because you're not constantly trying to keep up with a schedule and usher people along, which can feel more stressful than fun.

Sounds like they didn’t know anything about poker if you were having to explain why they lost or why other hands won. Hard to say “you should change x or y” based on one session of their first time.
If you don’t want them to come back by all means switch to cash and take a few hundred off of them cause they don’t know what they are doing. Just reinforce the idea that Poker is mysterious and you lose a lot of money and I’m sure they won’t return.
How about a little patience? Maybe give them a couple of chances to learn? Give them a book? Stop the clock if you have to have a 5 minute lesson?
Do you think that if your playing cash you won’t have to take the same time to explain stuff and therefore you only play the same number of hands?

 

[BGinGA]

My advice:

• Offer introductory Tournament Poker classes prior to your events. Great opportunity to cover basic procedural issues (what to do, when, and how) and some basic strategy (don't get deep into the weeds).
• Offer basic Tournament Strategy classes, addressing things like starting hand selection, bet sizing, positional play, short-stack strategy, and basic M calculations.
• Implement time chips into your events. The simple fact that actions are timed and excessively-slow play has consequences will speed up the pace. Combined with standardized basic knowledge and expectations (see above), your tournaments will run smoother, quicker, and be a more enjoyable experience for newbies and veterans alike.

Iirc, some of @Poker Zombie's events use a "call-a-friend" chip/card handed out to newbies, which can be used one time to get real-time strategy assistance from a non-involved experienced player (off-table, stopping the tourney clock) about a live hand-in-progress.

Imo, the minor delays created by such programs are a small price to pay when they assist and encourage new players to learn, helping to make them feel like welcomed participants (and less like just the new fish in the barrel).

 

[Blind Joe]

Thanks for the replies guys.

For clarity, the starting stacks were 11,000 (10k with a 1k bonus) and we had a further 20k in rebuys. So with 119K in play I'd have estimated L15 as the latest finish rather than L18. My initial thought was that playing fewer hands per level could have extended the game, since there are fewer players losing chips and getting closer to elimination.

Something else I should point out is that although I, as TD, felt the pressure of that extra time being "wasted" in each level, the guys I play with were all very accommodating and helped the newbies out as much as they could. And I certainly didn't want the new guys to feel hurried or that they were spoiling the game, I was just internally conscious of the fact we were playing very slowly, but I wanted them to feel welcome and wanted them to feel like poker was something they could learn and enjoy so they would come again.

@Poker Zombie i used to have cheat sheets but in the end I felt like they got in the way. Now I just have a poster (below) on the wall and trust that most players can remember what a flush or a full house is. Maybe I should bust out the cheat sheets at times like this though.

@ekricket it's not that I don't think cash games will require the same explanations, it's just that with a tournament the clock is always running against you and there's an end to a tournament that implicitly must be reached (chops aside). My assumption is that a cash game can be as slow and casual as it needs to be, with as many pauses for explanations as needed, and we can pack up and go home whenever we like without needing to get to a specific ending.

@BGinGA we did our best to offer every bit of advice we could without crossing too many lines - not that we are overly picky since there isn't a huge wad of cash to play for, it's mostly about the beer and the fun, so hopefully they will retain some of that info and come back needing a little less help.

Just to emphasise as I close, I don't have a problem with new, slow players (I was one myself not long ago) and I really want them to return as not only are they an asset to the player pool, they were great lads. My issue is that if I'm hosting a full table of potentially slow players I'd like some way to ensure we don't run all the way to the "emergency" levels because there hasn't been enough action to whittle down the field.

 

[ekricket]

Cool, have you considered a BB ante to maybe get the action going? It’s another complication for a new person, but not too hard to grasp.

 

[BGinGA]

with 119K in play I'd have estimated L15 as the latest finish rather than L18. My initial thought was that playing fewer hands per level could have extended the game, since there are fewer players losing chips and getting closer to elimination.

Fwiw, playing down to just 8.5bb total on the table (119k/14k) is typically more a function of very nitty play at the end, not slow play throughout the entire tournament.

 

[Mojo1312]

These may help: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/stfu-zip-it-buttons.49703/

 

[DeeVee8]

You could save some time by breaking every 90 min or so, instead of 60. 60 min between breaks is really fast, imo.

 

[Blind Joe]

Fwiw, playing down to just 8.5bb total on the table (119k/14k) is typically more a function of very nitty play at the end, not slow play throughout the entire tournament.

Interesting. I only recall reaching such a late level once before and that was 8 handed with 2 complete novices, but maybe its the increased nittiness on the bubble that's to blame (which I've definitely noticed) and the newbies are a red herring. If that's the case then I need to tweek my structure somehow because at 8 or 9 handed the 20BB rule is just not happening for us!

 

[Blind Joe]

Cool, have you considered a BB ante to maybe get the action going? It’s another complication for a new person, but not too hard to grasp.

It's not something I've done before but I think it's definitely something I should consider. I can't really reduce the level times and I don't want to resort to steeper increases so an ante seems like a sound way of reducing the overall duration.

Anyone got any suggestions for working antes into my schedule? Which level? How much? Is it possible to use antes in such a way that the color ups remain the same so that we aren't leaving small chips on the table throughout the tournament?

 

[Mr Winberg]

tl;dr: I think you are correct here:

our hand count was way down [...] and I think that affected the duration of the tournament

Long answer
Regarding this

Fwiw, playing down to just 8.5bb total on the table (119k/14k) is typically more a function of very nitty play at the end, not slow play throughout the entire tournament.

I'd say both can contribute. With all else being equal, the more hands you play the more chances people have of busting and therefore the deeper the stacks.

From my experience, my non-turbo events (~20 players, ~5 hours plus breaks) end with around 30-40 BBs, rarely below 30 or above 50 although it happens. When I used to host poker nights with several 2h STT turbos (10 players), they ended with around 20 BBs left, and less than 20 was hardly uncommon.

The length of the tournament doesn't matter (except for "fatigue calls", which usually speeds up the end game), it's the amount of hands. There is usually a strong correlation between the two, but with slow players even the best of structures turns into a turbo, and from my experience the more turbo-ish the tournament, the greater the chance that it will break the 20 BB rule. YMMV.

 

[DeeVee8]

In your situ

It's not something I've done before but I think it's definitely something I should consider. I can't really reduce the level times and I don't want to resort to steeper increases so an ante seems like a sound way of reducing the overall duration.

Anyone got any suggestions for working antes into my schedule? Which level? How much? Is it possible to use antes in such a way that the color ups remain the same so that we aren't leaving small chips on the table throughout the tournament?

Given your situation, BBA would be the only way to go. Anything else would make your situation worse. You'll hear nothing but "who didn't ante"?

With big blind antes, the big blind simply pays twice (to cover all antes). Your color ups would stay the same. Looking at your schedule, I would implement them starting at Level 5.

I'm not sure antes will make your game better. Faster, yes. You run the risk of losing those new, inexperienced players. They can't handle the game as-is, and now there are more rules? Something else to get frustrated with them about.

Growing a game is tough and you're going to have to "introduce" players to the game. My advice would be to talk to your experienced players about helping the newbies for the sake of the game. Get them all on the same page of educating new players.

 

[Beakertwang]

If my son and I are heads up, we're ending that game with 30-40 big blinds left. But I did have a tourney where a very cautious player and his newbie daughter were down to under 10BB each, and nothing was happening. I encouraged a chop, and I was happy they agreed.

 

[Blind Joe]

In your situ

Given your situation, BBA would be the only way to go. Anything else would make your situation worse. You'll hear nothing but "who didn't ante"?

With big blind antes, the big blind simply pays twice (to cover all antes). Your color ups would stay the same. Looking at your schedule, I would implement them starting at Level 5.

I'm not sure antes will make your game better. Faster, yes. You run the risk of losing those new, inexperienced players. They can't handle the game as-is, and now there are more rules? Something else to get frustrated with them about.

Growing a game is tough and you're going to have to "introduce" players to the game. My advice would be to talk to your experienced players about helping the newbies for the sake of the game. Get them all on the same page of educating new players.

Fair points, taken on board

I might suggest a micro-stakes cash game; a casual, no pressure game where we can all discuss poker, help the newbies understand, talk through hands and decisions, talk strategy (not that even us regulars have much of that lol).

I just don't know how much uptake there will be for that but who knows? I know looking back to my newbie days I probably wouldn't have turned up to a such a session, I just liked going to tournaments (there's a natural draw to the glamor of an event with a clear winner) for the beer and company and I was utterly clueless about the actual poker with little impotus to learn until I did so off my own back. I must have been pretty frustrating to those regulars back then

 

[Rookie]

My $0.02

Do you use 2 decks while playing? I didn't see in the thread if that's the case but if you're waiting for a shuffle between each hand, that can get long.

Try having a dedicated dealer, you and/ or another experienced player that can keep the pace of play and remind people when it's on them. You can share these duties by the level so it's not all on 1 guy.

As for your structure, not sure you can do much outside of the already suggested BBA.

The idea of having a practice hour or training session prior to a game is also a good idea.

Lastly, as they get more comfortable, they'll improve. Maybe just give it time.

 

[aaronroch]

Hey Joe,
I once taught like 5 friends to play all at once.

I would run a full hour “learning session” before each game combined with food and beers. I’d say I was covering “basic strategy” but really I was covering the rules, the mechanics of betting, hand values, reading the board, and we played some practice hands open handed. These were always well attended. Basically, if someone didn’t know how to play but wouldn’t attend the learning session, that was a good indication they didn’t actually want to play, at least not in my game.

started mixing in some actual basic strategy after 4-5 such sessions. We kept up the pre-game learning/ strategy sessions for a long time. Veterans often liked hanging out and having a beer and helping out during such sessions.

Don’t hesitate to make house rules that are newbie-friendly. For example, I banned one-chip calls for a while. I required players to announce their actions for the first few games: that helped a LOT. And I love the “call a friend” idea.

I’d also say plan on ending around 10xBB for a little while... in my experience with newbies play can get nitty.

keep up the good work! Getting people you like into poker and “training them up” to be solid beginner players can be very rewarding (and I don’t mean financially!).

 

[DeeVee8]

I’d also say plan on ending around 10xBB for a little while... in my experience with newbies play can get nitty.

Nothing like the heart pounding action of two newbies playing heads up at the end of a tournament.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Hey Joe,

where you goin' with that gun in your hand?

 

[Blind Joe]

My $0.02

Do you use 2 decks while playing? I didn't see in the thread if that's the case but if you're waiting for a shuffle between each hand, that can get long.

Try having a dedicated dealer, you and/ or another experienced player that can keep the pace of play and remind people when it's on them. You can share these duties by the level so it's not all on 1 guy.

As for your structure, not sure you can do much outside of the already suggested BBA.

The idea of having a practice hour or training session prior to a game is also a good idea.

Lastly, as they get more comfortable, they'll improve. Maybe just give it time.

Yes, we use two decks. God help us if we used one, we'd be playing till sunrise

We tend to use a dedicated shuffler rather than pass this duty around (usually me, then someone covers for me when I have the button). It might not be best long term but for now it avoids people forgetting when it's their turn to shuffle as well as ensuring only proficient and competent shufflers (ie quick with no flashed cards etc) do the shuffle.

Everyone deals on their turn but experienced players usually help or take over things like the pot and the muck just to keep things flowing and in order while the newbies stick to pealing cards.

 

[Jon Udell]

Over 10 years ago when I first started hosting everybody was very green including myself. Hell I tried running a tournament without any knowledge of chip distribution or blinds schedules! We just divided up those dice chips and started playing.... that tournament never ended and if it ever got down to heads up I guarantee we would have had to look up the procedural rules. I constructed and printed a laminated sheet of info including Basic rules of Texas Holdem, hand rankings, 50 top starting hands, and button help. On the other side of the sheet are common various blinds schedules that I like to use. I have found this to be a great tool for newer/occasional players and always have it near the table



when I host.

 

[Poker Zombie]

It might not be best long term but for now it avoids people forgetting when it's their turn to shuffle as well as ensuring only proficient and competent shufflers

While this is not terrible, it is a disservice for your players who may find themselves in a game where they are expected to shuffle.

Most of my players were brand-new to poker. You always knew if they had a straight or higher, because they had to refer to their hand ranking chart. My running joke after they popped cards everywhere trying to shuffle was "If you need help shuffling, I can get you a bucket and a stick."

It takes very little time to teach a proper shuffle. It takes a little practice, and that can make the first game a little slower. But the rewards are having a full table of people that can shuffle, so if one player can't shuffle that night (broken hand is one instance my group has encountered) then anyone sitting next to them can shuffle for them - no passing decks across the table.

Added bonus: when it's heads-up there is always a dedicated dealer available, and a dedicated shuffler as well. It doesn't matter who the final 4 were, they are probably going to wait to see who won, and will be willing to shuffle and/or deal.

Teach a man to fish...

 

[Blind Joe]

While this is not terrible, it is a disservice for your players who may find themselves in a game where they are expected to shuffle.

Most of my players were brand-new to poker. You always knew if they had a straight or higher, because they had to refer to their hand ranking chart. My running joke after they popped cards everywhere trying to shuffle was "If you need help shuffling, I can get you a bucket and a stick."

It takes very little time to teach a proper shuffle. It takes a little practice, and that can make the first game a little slower. But the rewards are having a full table of people that can shuffle, so if one player can't shuffle that night (broken hand is one instance my group has encountered) then anyone sitting next to them can shuffle for them - no passing decks across the table.

Added bonus: when it's heads-up there is always a dedicated dealer available, and a dedicated shuffler as well. It doesn't matter who the final 4 were, they are probably going to wait to see who won, and will be willing to shuffle and/or deal.

Teach a man to fish...

I preemptively conceded that this was probably not ideal in the long run because I knew someone would make these points

You're right, of course, but honestly my game is slow enough! Even the more experienced of us are amateurs compared to most on here and would be fish in your games. I draw the line at watching someone clumsily over shuffle, showing cards at every step, and finally spraying cards all over the floor then having to teach them to riffle when they could teach themselves easily enough. If you can't shuffle, you're not shuffling. My house, my rules

 

[surfik]

Just get a shot clock...

 

[asian bino]

Have the newbies show up 30 minutes early for next game.

Make sure they have a hand rank cheatsheet that is CLEAR, and with Pictures....like the one posted above, only all layed out on one axis...L to R for example.

Go over being READY to ACT.....None of this 'wait til my turn to look at my cards' BS.

Have them know: Raise/check/fold when they owe money, and check/bet when they have first option.

Put a betting line on the table so it is easier for new players to see actual bets, and not that someone is just sloppily stacking their chips somewhere. ENFORCE the line with whatever consistent rules you want.

Actually PLAY some hands. For realism of a 7 handed game, use a few stuffed animals
for extra players, deal them in, and act on their hands for them ("The purple lizard bets 650...careful, he likes to bluff....")

If these players don't improve drastically after that, Invite the ones that don't again next time, an HOUR early ....open some beers and go over things....If they don't show up early, they aren't really interested anyway....




Speaking of stuffed animals, I played a HORSE tournament at the Golden Nugget Grand Series about 10 years ago. Lots of new dealers who were used to dealing cash games, but not tournaments....

The dealer kept skipping the dead stacks and creating misdeals....happened like 3 out of 6 hands. Finally whipped out my HORSE horse, Mr. Ed, and put him on the tournament table, and said "Deal Mr. Ed in........"
No more problems......unfortunately, Mr Ed played tight and never won a hand, but, he was freerolling anyway....