Tourney Casual poker game setup (1 Viewer)

[Bkeev]

Hi,

Great site, I've tried to educate myself with all new terms such as "T10k" and T25 base etc.

So basically we've been playing for a while but the way we do the stacks etc isn't the easiest with maths so I'd like to see if we can make it a little easier. None of us that play have 'real world' poker expertise and we just do it as a completely casual experience. That being said, I would like to make it so it's easier to run and play when it comes to the chip values.

Looking over the forum it seems like the "T10K" setup looks like a good way to go.

I'm just a little confused with a few things such as colour up, as I think this is one of the things we've not been doing which contributes to chaos along with weird chip values.

The tournament is

Between 4 and 8 players usually
No rebuys or Add-ons
No limit Texas Hold em
Looking for around a 3 hour game

I've used the "Blinds are Up" app as suggested by some here and it's created a schedule and stacks but I wondered if someone could clarify the colour up process?

So, it seems the chip values are

25/100/500/1000/5000

With a starting stack for each player of

12/12/5/6/0

So that's good as I've seen this mentioned here.

The blinds schedule is

20 minute between each level

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
First colour up?
200/400
400/800
600/1200
1000/2000
Second colour up?
2000/4000
3000/6000
5000/10000
9000/18000

I think the 'chip race' might be a little confusing so just looking at rounding up.

But, this is where I'm confused. So, at the first colour up assuming we use the levels above, is it a matter of gathering each players 25 chips in stacks of 100, and then swapping these for 100 chips? Any stacks of 25 with less than 4 chips will also get rounded to a 100 chip. We should have enough chips spare to be able to do this, so not worried about doing this via the "bank" and not via a player (or chip captain according to the video I watched).


Then at the second one, same again, but 100 go to 1000 and 500 go to 5000? If we are rounding up, could this make a big advantage for someone if they have just 1 x 500 chip and they get a 1 x 5000 chip? I'm a bit confused how this works and if it's fair?


A little advice would be much appreciated as I'd really like to change our blinds to be a little more 'standard' or 'professional' than the made up values we have now

 

[Bkeev]

Then at the second one, same again, but 100 go to 1000 and 500 go to 5000? If we are rounding up, could this make a big advantage for someone if they have just 1 x 500 chip and they get a 1 x 5000 chip? I'm a bit confused how this works and if it's fair?

Hold on. I think I got this wrong? Do you round up to the next closest value in play?

So, if less than 5 x 100 chips it goes to 1 x 500, 7 x 100 chips to 1 x 1k chip etc?

 

[JustinInMN]

I'm just a little confused with a few things such as colour up, as I think this is one of the things we've not been doing which contributes to chaos along with weird chip values.

Our @Chris Manzoni has the best video on this topic, I think this will answer your questions.

In short coloring up is the process of removing lower denomination chips from play when they are no longer required by the structure.

With your given structure you could do the first color up after the 75-150 level as there are no blind levels after that that require a T25 chip.

Chris gives good detail in the video, but to give you the short version, the objective is to exchange all the T25 chips in quantities of T100 (4 chips) and then round up the remainder.

You do this by having one player at the table (ideally one of the bigger stacks) buy up all the t25s on the table that can be made into quantities of 100 (4 chips). Then exchange those chips with big value chips from the bank. (T5000 or T1000)

Then find a player with a quantity of T100 chips, have the bank buy those and then use those to "round up" the players with "leftover" T25 chips.

But watch the video and see if it makes sense .

 

[JustinInMN]

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
First colour up?
200/400
400/800
600/1200
1000/2000
Second colour up?
2000/4000
3000/6000
5000/10000
9000/18000

Now you didn't specifically ask about the structure, but I know there will be others along to post improvements. Namely, you have a few doubles in the structure that will make the tournament play too quickly.

Given you are looking for 3 hours with 20 minute levels, I would suggest this.

50-100
75-150
100-200
150-300
(Color up, remove T25)

200-400
300-600
400-800
600-1200
(Color up remove T100)

1000-2000
1500-3000



The rule of thumb is that the tournament will end during the level where all chips in play represents 20BB, and my experience is often it's the level before that.

If you allow rebuys you will probably at the most get 8 players and 4 rebuys for 12 total entries. If you want to target 3-3.5 hours using the above structure, the tournament should end on the 1500-3000 levels. So take 3000 * 20 and that means ideally you want to have t60k in play. Divide that by the 12 likely entries and you want your starting stack to be T5000.

If you made your starting stack T10k instead you would probably add a couple levels but that would push you to 4 hours.

Adding 2000-4000, and then a target final level of 3000-6000 means an ideal amount in play would be 120k, divided by 12 likely entries is a T10k starting stack.

Bottom line to manipulate tournament length you have 3 levers.

1) Starting stack
2) Blind structure
3) Level times.

Some combination of this will help you dial in the desired time.

Hope this helps.

 

[Frogzilla]

round up method you would round up to the next denomination in play. 375 becomes 400 when coloring up 25s. 2700 becomes 3000 when coloring up 100s.

This is a simpler method but the chip race is IMO a very underappreciated fun thing. It’s just funny when someone has four chips and makes a 5. It’s funny when someone is dealt trip aces and wins only one chip. I’ve won a chip with a 7. I’ve lost a chip with a Q. Was very close to winning with yesterday…3rd best, but only 1200 meaning only 2 chips awarded. Chip races are good gamble.

 

[BEANO52]

-The biggest issue that initially jumps out at me is the "final"level, 9000/18,000.
I would go ahead and go straight to 10,000/20,000.

 

[JustinInMN]

round up method you would round up to the next denomination in play. 375 becomes 400 when coloring up 25s. 2700 becomes 3000 when coloring up 100s.

This is a simpler method but the chip race is IMO a very underappreciated fun thing. It’s just funny when someone has four chips and makes a 5. It’s funny when someone is dealt trip aces and wins only one chip. I’ve won a chip with a 7. I’ve lost a chip with a Q. Was very close to winning with yesterday…3rd best, but only 1200 meaning only 2 chips awarded. Chip races are good gamble.

I do prefer chip race personally, but I have relented that in single table home tournaments with two color ups or fewer, round up is probably not significantly different.

But I like chip race better.

This is my favorite video on chip race, but you can probably skip to 3:00 to get to the specifics.

 

[Frogzilla]

I do prefer chip race personally, but I have relented that in single table home tournaments with two color ups or fewer, round up is probably not significantly different.

But I like chip race better.

This is my favorite video on chip race, but you can probably skip to 3:00 to get to the specifics.

Chip races are weird but easy one you do it a couple times
1) odd chips placed in front of stacks
2) standard shuffle then one card dealt face up per chip starting at seat 1 (3 chips gets 3 cards, etc)
3) bring all odd chips into middle and color them up, round up/down, exactly half rounds up.
4) identify highest card face up suits matter, highest, then etc
5) award that player one chip from the middle and muck all their cards
6) repeat until all chips in middle are gone

 

[Frogzilla]

Also, and I’ve never ever seen this happen, but officially you cannot be raced out of a tournament. I believe the rule is such a stack would still participate in the chip race, but if they happened to lose, the TD would add an extra chip from the bank to their stack. They wouldn’t automatically win one from the middle.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I also strongly prefer the chip race. Every chip matters, Every chip earns you a shot at a color-up chip.

Roundups are easy, but feel cheap. T25 and T75 are worth the same, so when betting it is +EV (albiet only slightly) to make odd-sized bets to reserve a single T25 in your stack, while getting the value of an extra T25 out of every caller.

The great poker rooms (Aria, Bellagio, Wynn) race off. Lesser rooms (Sahara, Mandalay Bay) round up. Neither is wrong, but make sure you let your players know which you plan to do, as it could affect bet sizing.

Also, it hasn't been mentioned specifically, but when coloring up T25s, you can also use T500s when you are short on T100s. If a player has T400 in T25s, just pull one T100 in addition to the 16 x T25s, and give them a T500. Personally, I like gobs of chips on the table, but if you have players that cant stack in easy to count piles, pulling a few out isn't a mistake. I have one player whose OCD mandates her stacks are all equal heights. So she may have stacks of 6, 7, 13, or whatever. So at colorup that gets remedied for the sake of speeding up the game, especially when counting stacks for all-ins..

 

[upNdown]

I also strongly prefer the chip race. Every chip matters, Every chip earns you a shot at a color-up chip.

Roundups are easy, but feel cheap. T25 and T75 are worth the same, so when betting it is +EV (albiet only slightly) to make odd-sized bets to reserve a single T25 in your stack, while getting the value of an extra T25 out of every caller.

The great poker rooms (Aria, Bellagio, Wynn) race off. Lesser rooms (Sahara, Mandalay Bay) round up. Neither is wrong, but make sure you let your players know which you plan to do, as it could affect bet sizing.

Also, it hasn't been mentioned specifically, but when coloring up T25s, you can also use T500s when you are short on T100s. If a player has T400 in T25s, just pull one T100 in addition to the 16 x T25s, and give them a T500. Personally, I like gobs of chips on the table, but if you have players that cant stack in easy to count piles, pulling a few out isn't a mistake. I have one player whose OCD mandates her stacks are all equal heights. So she may have stacks of 6, 7, 13, or whatever. So at colorup that gets remedied for the sake of speeding up the game, especially when counting stacks for all-ins..

I agree with you completely about chip races, but I’d never recommend them to a host who doesn’t even seem to understand the concept of coloring up. Hosting a tournament should be smooth and intuitive. If that isn’t going to happen, keep it simple.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I started with the chip race, even when I didn't understand. So instead of High card (with suits breaking ties in alphabetical order) I dealt the cards then a flop/turn/river, and searched for the best hand (which could result in a tie).

That was neither smooth nor intuitive (though it was fun). I did that for about a half-dozen games before I found the correct procedure on (now defunct) HomePokerTourney.com

I don't think it's tough. Less so than the whole concept of poker. It does take a little more time, but negligible IMO. It takes longer to get players to put their chips forward in countable stacks - but I primarily use my game as a learning experience so others can learn what's happening at low, friendly stakes before experiencing it elsewhere for more money or less friendly (online where nothing is explained) or a casino (where regulars may get irritated at newbie play).

 

[BGinGA]

it hasn't been mentioned specifically, but when coloring up T25s, you can also use T500s when you are short on T100s. If a player has T400 in T25s, just pull one T100 in addition to the 16 x T25s, and give them a T500.

However, the TD should never introduce chips into the tourament that will be later removed from play -- workhorse chips that will remain in play should be introduced instead. First action by the TD (rounding or racing) is to make change with the big stack to get the proper amount of change-chips needed to remove the chips that will no longer be in play.

If there are 10 players who each started with 8x T25 chips, then the TD will need to exchange T2000 in T25 chips (80 x T25) -- and thus introduces two T1000 chips, getting change from the bigger stack(s) that have excess T100s. This is also where having the big stack 'buy' the T25 chips from other players pays big benefits, as most can be removed from play in bulk. The TD should not be introducing more T100 chips into play to replace the T25 chips (or even T500s).

 

[BGinGA]

Also, and I’ve never ever seen this happen, but officially you cannot be raced out of a tournament. I believe the rule is such a stack would still participate in the chip race, but if they happened to lose, the TD would add an extra chip from the bank to their stack. They wouldn’t automatically win one from the middle.

This procedure as described makes little sense to me, since one of the reasons for racing (vs rounding) is to avoid adding new chips to the total value of chips in play (total value of the chips in play will always equal the total value of the starting chips).

The single-chip stack should be awarded the first (or last remaining, makes no difference) color-up chip, not an extra chip that is added to the tournament. Distribution of the color-up chips is still determined by random chance, and the total value of chips in play is not altered.

 

[JustinInMN]

The single-chip stack should be awarded the first (or last remaining, makes no difference) color-up chip, not an extra chip that is added to the tournament. Distribution of the color-up chips is still determined by random chance, and the total value of chips in play is not altered.

Sacred order of the race cards . Wait...

 

[Poker Zombie]

However, the TD should never introduce chips into the tourament that will be later removed from play -- workhorse chips that will remain in play should be introduced instead. First action by the TD (rounding or racing) is to make change with the big stack to get the proper amount of change-chips needed to remove the chips that will no longer be in play.

If there are 10 players who each started with 8x T25 chips, then the TD will need to exchange T2000 in T25 chips (80 x T25) -- and thus introduces two T1000 chips, getting change from the bigger stack(s) that have excess T100s. This is also where having the big stack 'buy' the T25 chips from other players pays big benefits, as most can be removed from play in bulk. The TD should not be introducing more T100 chips into play to replace the T25 chips (or even T500s).

I've done it both ways, both adding T100s that will get removed in a break or two, and with one player buying up chips and getting just a couple large denom chips.

Adding chips that will later be removed makes change making less common as they are now (likely) going to be used more, but takes a little longer on the next color up.

If you aren't that pressed for time on the breaks, and your chips aren't too unwieldly, I have no issue with giving a player 4xT100s for 16xT25s, especially if that player is currently low on T100 chips in their stack. Your method though, is acceptable.

This procedure as described makes little sense to me, since one of the reasons for racing (vs rounding) is to avoid adding new chips to the total value of chips in play (total value of the chips in play will always equal the total value of the starting chips).

The single-chip stack should be awarded the first (or last remaining, makes no difference) color-up chip, not an extra chip that is added to the tournament. Distribution of the color-up chips is still determined by random chance, and the total value of chips in play is not altered.

I disagree. The race isn't meant to keep the chip count the same. In a Multi-table Tournament (MTT), if a player gets moved to a different table there may be 2 extra T25s at each table. Are you racing between tables, or as per TDA rules, rounding 2xT25s to one T100?

Even though we can deciare it unlikely, it is theoretically possible that 4 players each have 1xT25, and it is their last chip. You either eliminate 3 or give each a chip.

The method of racing for the last chip allows a player with just one T25 the opportunity to block an opponent from gaining the T100, but the block is not guaranteed. Thus having just 1xT25 or 3xT25s matters. Admittedly very little, but it matters.

 

[BGinGA]

Even though we can deciare it unlikely, it is theoretically possible that 4 players each have 1xT25, and it is their last chip. You either eliminate 3 or give each a chip.

This a valid hypothetical (albeit extremely unlikely) point, and one that makes a great case for adding additional chips when absolutely necessary (but not as the normal course of affairs) when using the race-off method. Maintaining the value of chips-in-play IS one of the reasons it's used (but not the only one).

But if you find this occurring with any regularity in your events, you are clearly missing out on some opportunities for big bucks as a private poker coach.


On a (mostly) more serious note, I have convinced myself that the 'best' color-up procedure is actually a hybrid mix of the round/race methods:

~ If 4:1 exchange, then 1-chip player(s) get nothing, 3-chip player(s) get a chip, and any players with exactly 2 chips flip (hi-card) for a chip. If an odd or only one 2-chip player exists, he draws a card (black for a chip, red for nada).

~ If 5:1 exchange, then -- 1- and 2-chip player(s) get nothing, 3- and 4-chip player(s) get a chip. (alt method: 1-chip gets nothing, 4-chip gets a chip, all 2- and 3-chip players race-off).

~ If 2:1 exchange, then players with 1-chip flip (hi-card) for chip, with odd players drawing (red/black) for a chip.

In all cases, every chip matters, but plan your pre-coloring betting strategy accordingly if so inclined. A really sharp crowd will auto-convert this to essentially the round-up method in most cases by striving to hold an auto round-up number if possible.

Should take longer than a simple round-up but less time than a pure race-off, minimize the added-value effect of round-ups, and retain the perceived 'added gambol' of race-offs. Plus it adds a new (mostly irrelevant) betting strategy component.

 

[JustinInMN]

~ If 4:1 exchange, then 1-chip player(s) get nothing, 3-chip player(s) get a chip, and any players with exactly 2 chips flip (hi-card) for a chip. If an odd or only one 2-chip player exists, he draws a card (black for a chip, red for nada).

~ If 5:1 exchange, then -- 1- and 2-chip player(s) get nothing, 3- and 4-chip player(s) get a chip. (alt method: 1-chip gets nothing, 4-chip gets a chip, all 2- and 3-chip players race-off).

~ If 2:1 exchange, then players with 1-chip flip (hi-card) for chip, with odd players drawing (red/black) for a chip.

In all cases, every chip matters, but plan your pre-coloring betting strategy accordingly if so inclined. A really sharp crowd will auto-convert this to essentially the round-up method in most cases by striving to hold an auto round-up number if possible.

For what it's worth, the effect on betting strategy is my 2nd objection to the round up method. (The first being the inflation of the prize pool by entire starting stacks with the rounding error in the 3rd or 4th color up in bigger events.)

So adding rules to minimize the cards drawn doesn't do much to alleviate that objection nor does it make me think a hybrid is superior to either straight round-up or straight racing.

 

[JustinInMN]

Also, and I’ve never ever seen this happen, but officially you cannot be raced out of a tournament. I believe the rule is such a stack would still participate in the chip race, but if they happened to lose, the TD would add an extra chip from the bank to their stack. They wouldn’t automatically win one from the middle.

This procedure as described makes little sense to me, since one of the reasons for racing (vs rounding) is to avoid adding new chips to the total value of chips in play (total value of the chips in play will always equal the total value of the starting chips).

These are the two reasons I can see for the rule having a player in a possible elimination scenario (meaning they have a quantity of chips lesser than a single of the next lowest denomination after the color up) participate in the race, but still be awarded a single chip if they won't win a round up.

1) Maintains the value of all odd chips in the race for the players that are not in the elimination scenario.

If a player in the elimination scenario is automatically awarded a chip by reducing the number available to be won, then the other players effectively lose value by reducing their round-up odds.

2) Extreme scenario in which there are more players in the elimination scenario that chips to be won.

All the examples and arguments so far have seemed to assume one player at most in the elimination scenario, but I think we should point out this possibility of multiple players in this scenario as well. Which also means a possibility of there being more players in the elimination scenario than there would be chips to be won. Which also results in a total loss for any players that have odd chips that are not in the elimination scenario.

So based on these examples, the idea of putting elimination scenario players in the race will reduce the number of chips when said players happen to win, but without taking any race value away from those that are not in the elimination scenario.

Now that said, I will acknowledge there is one scenario is which a player would have a total loss using the race method, even with no players in the elimination scenario, and that would be the possibility that the total number of odd chips is less than 50% of the value of the next lowest denomination in which case those chips are just removed from play and no round-ups are to be won.

But as with all things there are trade-offs of course.

 

[JustinInMN]

I will also point out that we are arguing so deep about the minutiae of the race procedure, we are a ways off of @Bkeev 's original topic, and we are making the case that round-up does have a benefit in simplicity.

But I think @Poker Zombie and I are in the camp that the chip race, even if less simple minimizes (does not eliminate) chip inflation and is desirable for that reason.

 

[BGinGA]

the effect on betting strategy is my 2nd objection to the round up method.

Of course, that assumes that an impending race-off doesn't also affect betting strategy (i.e., attempting to procure multiple chips to race off vs just one).

 

[JustinInMN]

Of course, that assumes that an impending race-off doesn't also affect betting strategy (i.e., attempting to procure multiple chips to race off vs just one).

The round-up method removes the risk of wagering extra chips so long as the player keeps at least one of the denom about to be rounded off, they are treated the same as one that has 3 odd chips to be rounded off. With the race method, a player with one odd chip is treated differently than one with three odd chips, therefore there is a downside to wagering extra chips with the race method that doesn't exist with the round up method.

 

[Bkeev]

Wow thanks for all the tips and info.

Good to see that the T10k and 12/12/5/6 seems a good starting point. I did notice that Chris did speak about this in one of his videos too but preferred a different starting stack.

Also thanks for help with the blind structure.

It's interesting to see the pros and cons of the chip race and I really enjoyed seeing both sides of it.