Circus Games - More Action Games vs. Less Action Games (1 Viewer)

[MrCatPants]

Many of us love circus games because they create more action - split pots, more outs/draws/etc. lead to less folding and bigger pots. That said, not all circus games are created equal and some games might as well be hold'em. Curious on everyone's take as to what games are more action vs. what games are less (WHEN PLAYED REASONABLY CLOSE TO CORRECTLY). I'll get it started with some of my opinions below.

Looking to build a resource for folks of which circus games 'get out of hand' versus stay small.

(last updated 12/1/23)

More Action:
Derailment
Double Board Omaha Hi Variants
Double Board Omaha Ultimate High/Ultimate Low
Multiple draw high or split pot games (Archie, triple draw high)

Some Action:
PLO8
Split hand games such as SOHE, SHESHE, Three Hand Hold'em, etc.
Other multiple draw games (lowball triple draw games, badugi)
Dramaha variants
Scarney

Less Action:
Scrotum/Scrotum8
Single draw games
Limit stud games

 

[MatB]

it really depends on table dynamic for all thoe games you listed.

I have definitely seen more than once most of the table bemoan a'non action' game when it gets called, only to have every other hand with multiple all ins with LOTS OF ACTION !

Only thing we can say for sure, LIMIT Holdem is NOT action.

 

[ekricket]

I categorize the “action games” a bit different. Some of the games are “play for stacks” games, where there a greater chance if all-ins and less chance of strategy poker. Double board ultimate high/low is one if those. When that game is called, someone will go all-in every hand.

 

[MrCatPants]

I categorize the “action games” a bit different. Some of the games are “play for stacks” games, where there a greater chance if all-ins and less chance of strategy poker. Double board ultimate high/low is one if those. When that game is called, someone will go all-in every hand.

I've added the ultimate high/low to the top - agree.

And I'm looking at all these as pot limit so to play for stacks, when people are deep, it has to provide action earlier in the hand to build the pot. So I often see derailment hands where someone is facing a several hundred big blind river shove. Scarney that generally doesn't get quite to that point.

Same with the triple draw games (unless games like 2-7 are being played 'correctly' - enough action and enough betting rounds where the final betting round can end up quite significant.

 

[JMC9389]

I categorize the “action games” a bit different. Some of the games are “play for stacks” games, where there a greater chance if all-ins and less chance of strategy poker. Double board ultimate high/low is one if those. When that game is called, someone will go all-in every hand.

I also put drawmaha variants and Archie in the "most action" category.

I've also played massive SOHE and super hold em hands. Almost every hand at least makes it to showdown in my experience.

 

[ekricket]

I categorize the “action games” a bit different. Some of the games are “play for stacks” games, where there a greater chance if all-ins and less chance of strategy poker. Double board ultimate high/low is one if those. When that game is called, someone will go all-in every hand.

I’ll try to keep better track. But there are games that when called my brain says “stacks game” and I watch my play accordingly.

 

[MrCatPants]

I also put drawmaha variants and Archie in the "most action" category.

I've also played massive SOHE and super hold em hands. Almost every hand at least makes it to showdown in my experience.

Archie is up there in the top, agreed.

I have different experience with the dramaha games, the pots and bets tend to be more moderated in my opinion. But my group is a medium action group.

 

[JMC9389]

Archie is up there in the top, agreed.

I have different experience with the dramaha games, the pots and bets tend to be more moderated in my opinion. But my group is a medium action group.

Depends on who you're playing with definitely. Meetup circus always plays much bigger than my local game even if the blinds are similar. I get side eyed and/or the table gets quiet when someone announces "pot" in my local 0.25/0.25 game. At PHL this past September there was an all in every 2 or 3 hands playing draw2maha or drawmaha 49. YMMV.

 

[MatB]

Archie - Action Level 7.5. Cooler level 10. Stack buster level 8

2o5 Hi/lo (bum Bum). Action Level 8. Cooler Level 9. Stack Buster Level 8

Dramaha. Action level 7 Cooler level 5. Stack Buster Level 6

DBL BOARD Hi. Action level 6. Cooler level 5. Stack Buster Level 4

BIGO. Action Level 6. Cooler level 5. Stack Buster Level 5.5

Scarneyy (ICELANDIC) Action Level 4.5 Cooler level 3.5. Stack Buster level 4

NL HOLDEM. Action level 1.5. Cooler Level 1 Stack Buster Level 2

LIMIT HOLDEM Action level -1. Cooler Level -2 Stack Buster level -8

 

[JMC9389]

Archie - Action Level 8. Cooler level 9. Stack buster level 8.5

2o5 Hi/lo (bum Bum). Action Level N/A. Cooler Level N/A. Stack Buster Level N/A, I'm a virgin

Dramaha. Action level 7.5 Cooler level 7.5. Stack Buster Level 7

DBL BOARD Hi. Action level 7. Cooler level 4. Stack Buster Level 7

BIGO. Action Level 5. Cooler level 5. Stack Buster Level 5

Scarneyy (ICELANDIC) Action Level 7 Cooler level 6. Stack Buster level 6

NL HOLDEM. Action level 2 Cooler Level 3 Stack Buster Level 2

LIMIT HOLDEM Action level 0. Cooler Level 0 Stack Buster level 0

My opinions.

Not giving enough credit to double board Omaha, Scarney, or drawmaha. Every else I pretty much agree with.

 

[JMC9389]

Stud8 can also get pretty violent depending on the mix as well.

 

[MatB]

factors to consider:

Alcohol consumption

How long since last had poker game

How stuck is everyone.

Stakes. ( higher stake player playing low stakes will push every pot)

 

[ekricket]

Wtf are you doing? Tapping on the glass?

This is why holdem died, too much analysis.

I’ve got a lot of meetup experience that I paid for and I’m not giving it away.

 

[MrCatPants]

My opinions.

Not giving enough credit to double board Omaha, Scarney, or drawmaha. Every else I pretty much agree with.

I agree on the double board hi. Already said my piece on dramaha being middle of the road. Though 49 and zero have some distinct cooler possibilities.

 

[MrCatPants]

Wtf are you doing? Tapping on the glass?

This is why holdem died, too much analysis.

I’ve got a lot of meetup experience that I paid for and I’m not giving it away.

No tapping. Just trying to get the games that get the action flowing (and also the games that may not be great for first timers who try circus, get stacked three times in 40 minutes, and swear off it for life).

E.g. try alcohol first, not black tar heroin.

 

[JMC9389]

I agree on the double board hi. Already said my piece on dramaha being middle of the road. Though 49 and zero have some distinct cooler possibilities.

Definitely distinct cooler possibilities, especially with @MatB . He'll play half the drawmaha hands blind until the draw, yet somehow still end up with exactly one more pip than you at showdown.

 

[bergs]

It’s funny that most of these games were originally limit games.

I’m probably at fault for turning a lot of these into PL at meetups, but I’m not the only one.

I think I brought Archie, Dramaha49, and Dramaha0 out of Resorts World limit.

SOHE came from Abby99. First time I saw it was at BBOTB2 or 3 when she called it and we were hooked. Interesting years later I played it limit at Resorts but they called it “Omaha Holdem”.

Scarney came from Jbutler’s limit game on Wednesday nights in ATL about 5 year ago (where there is a declare for the high, low, or both (shudder)).

The names for the games are funny too.

Derailment was called something else in jbutler’s game too, and they played it limit, but when I called it at sanel54’s game one night they called double board Omaha “Tracks” so logically triple board with a board getting wiped out became derailment when someone got scooped on a 4-4-6 river runout. They bemoaned getting derailed while we all made “choooo-choooo” sounds and the game was reborn. The first time we played it in the Northeast we played it limit but it was weird going PL to FL for one game so it was PL by the second time we played it.

We made bum-bum up one night out of thin air while drunk at ssanel54’s game. Tahoe (Omaha 2-5) was playing tight so I tried to loosen it up. I called the game as “Tahoe hi lo with a draw”, got scooped first hand by Lawyer Bob, and when I told him “feels like someone just stuck it right in me bum bum” he said we should call the game that. Thus it was written.

Tahoe is an entirely different game in Louisville. I can’t remember what it is though. It’s definitely not 2-5 Omaha tho. The regional differences are funny too.

I have no idea where God’s Game came from (both the game and the name). I don’t even hear double board called at meetups anymore. My sense is that it came out of K9’s meetup in FL but that’s just an educated guess.

No idea where the different versions of Scarney came from or where the names emanated from. They’re definitely a PCF meetup phenomenon from what I can tell. If anyone knows where Icelandic and the other variants came from please share.

Shuck came from Leonard (not sure where he got it from). Pitch and Bitch / Pitch and Roll was called by Chippy first time I played it but my sense is that it had been around for a while as a stud variant.

Also feels like Dramaha has been around a long time. I don’t remember when I first saw it played PL.

Interestingly the term “circus game” came from @JoseRijo about 10 years ago. We used to play a 2-6 rotation in the northeast that was our first toe dip into full circus before the draw games were introduced.

2 - NLHE
3 - NL Crazy Pineapple
4 - Omaha hi
5 - Big O hi/lo
6 - SOHE

Jose lost at SOHE one night when I had 2 tables running and loudly lamented how stupid SOHE and the other games were, and how he considered NLHE the only true poker game.

Everyone argued with him, and when he snapped back “Please….the games are a fucking circus” we all died and the circus game rotation was born.

 

[Hornet]

It’s funny that most of these games were originally limit games.

I’m probably at fault for turning a lot of these into PL at meetups, but I’m not the only one.

I think I brought Archie, Dramaha49, and Dramaha0 out of Resorts World limit.

SOHE came from Abby99. First time I saw it was at BBOTB2 or 3 when she called it and we were hooked. Interesting years later I played it limit at Resorts but they called it “Omaha Holdem”.

Scarney came from Jbutler’s limit game on Wednesday nights in ATL about 5 year ago (where there is a declare for the high, low, or both (shudder)).

The names for the games are funny too.

Derailment was called something else in jbutler’s game too, and they played it limit, but when I called it at sanel54’s game one night they called double board Omaha “Tracks” so logically triple board with a board getting wiped out became derailment when someone got scooped on a 4-4-6 river runout. They bemoaned getting derailed while we all made “choooo-choooo” sounds and the game was reborn. The first time we played it in the Northeast we played it limit but it was weird going PL to FL for one game so it was PL by the second time we played it.

We made bum-bum up one night out of thin air while drunk at ssanel54’s game. Tahoe (Omaha 2-5) was playing tight so I tried to loosen it up. I called the game as “Tahoe hi lo with a draw”, got scooped first hand by Lawyer Bob, and when I told him “feels like someone just stuck it right in me bum bum” he said we should call the game that. Thus it was written.

Tahoe is an entirely different game in Louisville. I can’t remember what it is though. It’s definitely not 2-5 Omaha tho. The regional differences are funny too.

I have no idea where God’s Game came from (both the game and the name). I don’t even hear double board called at meetups anymore. My sense is that it came out of K9’s meetup in FL but that’s just an educated guess.

No idea where the different versions of Scarney came from or where the names emanated from. They’re definitely a PCF meetup phenomenon from what I can tell. If anyone knows where Icelandic and the other variants came from please share.

Shuck came from Leonard (not sure where he got it from). Pitch and Bitch / Pitch and Roll was called by Chippy first time I played it but my sense is that it had been around for a while as a stud variant.

Also feels like Dramaha has been around a long time. I don’t remember when I first saw it played PL.

Interestingly the term “circus game” came from @JoseRijo about 10 years ago. We used to play a 2-6 rotation in the northeast that was our first toe dip into full circus before the draw games were introduced.

2 - NLHE
3 - NL Crazy Pineapple
4 - Omaha hi
5 - Big O hi/lo
6 - SOHE

Jose lost at SOHE one night when I had 2 tables running and loudly lamented how stupid SOHE and the other games were, and how he considered NLHE the only true poker game.

Everyone argued with him, and when he snapped back “Please….the games are a fucking circus” we all died and the circus game rotation was born.

I didn’t realize I’ve been playing with the person who literally invented circus games. Next time I see you, I’ll give you the respect that you so obviously deserve.

 

[Taghkanic]

Circus games almost always reduce the skill edge of good players… or at least extend the timeline for skill to overcome variance to thousands rather than hundreds of hands.

Since there are way more bad poker players than good ones, it’s no wonder they are popular.

/rant

 

[ekricket]

It’s funny that most of these games were originally limit games.

I’m probably at fault for turning a lot of these into PL at meetups, but I’m not the only one.

I think I brought Archie, Dramaha49, and Dramaha0 out of Resorts World limit.

SOHE came from Abby99. First time I saw it was at BBOTB2 or 3 when she called it and we were hooked. Interesting years later I played it limit at Resorts but they called it “Omaha Holdem”.

Scarney came from Jbutler’s limit game on Wednesday nights in ATL about 5 year ago (where there is a declare for the high, low, or both (shudder)).

The names for the games are funny too.

Derailment was called something else in jbutler’s game too, and they played it limit, but when I called it at sanel54’s game one night they called double board Omaha “Tracks” so logically triple board with a board getting wiped out became derailment when someone got scooped on a 4-4-6 river runout. They bemoaned getting derailed while we all made “choooo-choooo” sounds and the game was reborn. The first time we played it in the Northeast we played it limit but it was weird going PL to FL for one game so it was PL by the second time we played it.

We made bum-bum up one night out of thin air while drunk at ssanel54’s game. Tahoe (Omaha 2-5) was playing tight so I tried to loosen it up. I called the game as “Tahoe hi lo with a draw”, got scooped first hand by Lawyer Bob, and when I told him “feels like someone just stuck it right in me bum bum” he said we should call the game that. Thus it was written.

Tahoe is an entirely different game in Louisville. I can’t remember what it is though. It’s definitely not 2-5 Omaha tho. The regional differences are funny too.

I have no idea where God’s Game came from (both the game and the name). I don’t even hear double board called at meetups anymore. My sense is that it came out of K9’s meetup in FL but that’s just an educated guess.

No idea where the different versions of Scarney came from or where the names emanated from. They’re definitely a PCF meetup phenomenon from what I can tell. If anyone knows where Icelandic and the other variants came from please share.

Shuck came from Leonard (not sure where he got it from). Pitch and Bitch / Pitch and Roll was called by Chippy first time I played it but my sense is that it had been around for a while as a stud variant.

Also feels like Dramaha has been around a long time. I don’t remember when I first saw it played PL.

Interestingly the term “circus game” came from @JoseRijo about 10 years ago. We used to play a 2-6 rotation in the northeast that was our first toe dip into full circus before the draw games were introduced.

2 - NLHE
3 - NL Crazy Pineapple
4 - Omaha hi
5 - Big O hi/lo
6 - SOHE

Jose lost at SOHE one night when I had 2 tables running and loudly lamented how stupid SOHE and the other games were, and how he considered NLHE the only true poker game.

Everyone argued with him, and when he snapped back “Please….the games are a fucking circus” we all died and the circus game rotation was born.

Icelandic Scarney was born at the Iceland meetup. The other variants of Scarney came in the next few meetups. Somewhere in there we had an epiphany, that if we could monkey with one we could with others. So more variants of existing games and new games were developed over the next few years at meetups. But there as a substantial base already built, even though it was a lot of sohe, triple hand holdem, double board plo, and Scarney.
@abby99 gave a big big big push with her database, and when it became printed cards then the assorted games really took off.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Circus games almost always reduce the skill edge of good players… or at least extend the timeline for skill to overcome variance to thousands rather than hundreds of hands.

Since there are way more bad poker players than good ones, it’s no wonder they are popular.

/rant

Except there is still a learning curve. So for a certain period the skilled player possesses an advantage.

 

[Nanook]

I didn’t realize I’ve been playing with the person who literally invented circus games. Next time I see you, I’ll give you the respect that you so obviously deserve.

Lol...
I didn't realize @bergs posted anywhere other than in the politics forum.

Interesting stuff @bergs

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Circus games almost always reduce the skill edge of good players… or at least extend the timeline for skill to overcome variance to thousands rather than hundreds of hands.

Since there are way more bad poker players than good ones, it’s no wonder they are popular.

/rant

Except there is still a learning curve. So for a certain period the skilled player possesses an advantage.

Yeah, agreed. Its not even circus, but even when I warn them most of my players get married to 3 of a kind in their hand during Omaha lol, let alone when they've got a straight in Scarney.

 

[bergs]

I didn’t realize I’ve been playing with the person who literally invented circus games. Next time I see you, I’ll give you the respect that you so obviously deserve.

I only invented one. The rest I bastardized to PL. Based on my results at the Ohio meetup I don’t think I need any respect…maybe some pity at a low APR loan.

 

[bergs]

Lol...
I didn't realize @bergs posted anywhere other than in the politics forum.

Interesting stuff @bergs

All the time, boo-boo.

 

[MrCatPants]

So I played in a non PCF related circus game for many years. 10+ years ago they were playing double board hi Omaha, 4 or 5 card. 5 card high low ("congress" in texas). I dont think those types of games were PCF inventions accordingly.

There was one group of games that I haven't seen on cards/played in PCF circles. Not sure if it originated in this game or not.

Evil/Double Evil - tons of variants, but it's either 3 or 4 card Hi low on one or ultimate hi low on two boards. Pre flop you pass one (or two if "double") of your hole cards to your right. Game plays standard from there.

Great game to call on the button as it amplifies positional advantage.

 

[abby99]

It’s funny that most of these games were originally limit games.

I’m probably at fault for turning a lot of these into PL at meetups, but I’m not the only one.

I think I brought Archie, Dramaha49, and Dramaha0 out of Resorts World limit.

SOHE came from Abby99. First time I saw it was at BBOTB2 or 3 when she called it and we were hooked. Interesting years later I played it limit at Resorts but they called it “Omaha Holdem”.

Scarney came from Jbutler’s limit game on Wednesday nights in ATL about 5 year ago (where there is a declare for the high, low, or both (shudder)).

The names for the games are funny too.

Derailment was called something else in jbutler’s game too, and they played it limit, but when I called it at sanel54’s game one night they called double board Omaha “Tracks” so logically triple board with a board getting wiped out became derailment when someone got scooped on a 4-4-6 river runout. They bemoaned getting derailed while we all made “choooo-choooo” sounds and the game was reborn. The first time we played it in the Northeast we played it limit but it was weird going PL to FL for one game so it was PL by the second time we played it.

We made bum-bum up one night out of thin air while drunk at ssanel54’s game. Tahoe (Omaha 2-5) was playing tight so I tried to loosen it up. I called the game as “Tahoe hi lo with a draw”, got scooped first hand by Lawyer Bob, and when I told him “feels like someone just stuck it right in me bum bum” he said we should call the game that. Thus it was written.

Tahoe is an entirely different game in Louisville. I can’t remember what it is though. It’s definitely not 2-5 Omaha tho. The regional differences are funny too.

I have no idea where God’s Game came from (both the game and the name). I don’t even hear double board called at meetups anymore. My sense is that it came out of K9’s meetup in FL but that’s just an educated guess.

No idea where the different versions of Scarney came from or where the names emanated from. They’re definitely a PCF meetup phenomenon from what I can tell. If anyone knows where Icelandic and the other variants came from please share.

Shuck came from Leonard (not sure where he got it from). Pitch and Bitch / Pitch and Roll was called by Chippy first time I played it but my sense is that it had been around for a while as a stud variant.

Also feels like Dramaha has been around a long time. I don’t remember when I first saw it played PL.

Interestingly the term “circus game” came from @JoseRijo about 10 years ago. We used to play a 2-6 rotation in the northeast that was our first toe dip into full circus before the draw games were introduced.

2 - NLHE
3 - NL Crazy Pineapple
4 - Omaha hi
5 - Big O hi/lo
6 - SOHE

Jose lost at SOHE one night when I had 2 tables running and loudly lamented how stupid SOHE and the other games were, and how he considered NLHE the only true poker game.

Everyone argued with him, and when he snapped back “Please….the games are a fucking circus” we all died and the circus game rotation was born.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

The triggers for me were Limit Omaha and then HORSE. As my interest in mixed games grew (exploded, really), I explored various online resources including but not limited to:

• Instruction cards produced by a 2+2 member (with his permission). IIRC, @Payback had a set. These cards served as the basis for the cards that I did.
• 2+2
• BARGE
• Top Pair Podcast
• Card Player Magazine
• A list with explanations titled Blank Frank or something like that. I couldn't find it quickly.
• A list with explanations found at Pagat.com
• Lists of mixed game rotations from several Las Vegas casinos and online poker sites
• Games encountered at meetups
• PCF, of course

Several lists of poker variants can be found online. There are hundreds of games. For the most part, I narrowed the field according to the following:

• "Official" game titles (and spellings) as used by casinos, poker sites, and poker publications.
• Games played at meetups (more than once or twice)
• One card per game with aka subtitles when useful
• Exclude wild-card games (e.g., Deuces Wild, Woolworth (5s and 10s wild), King with the Axe)
• Exclude what I think of as "kitchen table games" such as Follow the Queen and Christmas Tree, and games that involve passing cards to your neighbor

I first heard the term "God's Game" from either @detroitdad or @k9dr.

I think it's about time I updated my files for PCF's Resources section.

 

[ThrowBack]

I never played, but considering my group calls with j6 off and doesn’t understand position, I can’t imagine Drawmaha not building huge multi way pots

 

[MrCatPants]

I never played, but considering my group calls with j6 off and doesn’t understand position, I can’t imagine Drawmaha not building huge multi way pots

They'll all bust in one or two hands and hate it. Play these either really low blinds pot limit, or better yet fixed limit.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

They'll all bust in one or two hands and hate it. Play these either really low blinds pot limit, or better yet fixed limit.

Second this. Fixed limit keeps it fun, no limit circus with noobies is a recipe for bad feelings and a short night. My apes only enjoy making the big hands, they don't actually want to stack off early in the night.