Cheating with shuffle machines? (4 Viewers)

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Not sure these days, haven’t been to Vegas since 2016. Pre Deckmate #2 and original Deckmate, most of the casinos in Atlantic City were using a machine called “Shufflemaster” I believe.
With those machines, I didn’t notice much difference in the “hand manipulation” as I’ve noticed with DM2s. It just allowed more hands per hour.
With the introduction of DM2s and the connection of literally everything to the table from your players card to the info being fed back to the Bravo app on your phone, I just don’t trust that the game isn’t manipulated to a degree to work in the casinos favor.
You’ll never convince me otherwise. Poker has always been a drag profit wise on casinos compared to slot machines and most other games. I think the technology has at least helped them gain a better margin from the card rooms.
Almost every hand dealt involving a DM2 creates what I like to call a set up hand, the made hands hit on the flop but always give several drawing hand opportunities.
You’ll almost never see a K 8 2 rainbow flop ever on a DM2 Shuffled and dealt table.
Go to a casino and watch for an hour sometime, then sit in a hand shuffled and dealt game and observe.
I think you’ll be amazed at what you notice cause you never paid attention to to it before.
Yes I’m a fool and an idiot and I do respect your opinion to think so.
Enjoy that DM2 dealt game you may be sitting at.

Hmmm... Interesting stuff. So my first thought was, if I find myself in a game with an automatic shuffler, How do I determine if it's a Deckmate 2???

A little research (maybe you all already know this) shows that there is Shufflemaster and Shuffle Tech. Two different companies making shufflers. Maybe there are others, so feel free to add to this. But from what I can see in various sales copy, the Deckmate dominates the market and the Shuffle Tech is the little guy. One ad stated that Deckmate was used in every major casino in Vegas. Exaggeration?

Found this pic in a sales ad. If all Deckmates are marked like this, it should be an easy task to identify if they are being used at any table you sit down at.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Hmmm... Interesting stuff. So my first thought was, if I find myself in a game with an automatic shuffler, How do I determine if it's a Deckmate 2???

A little research (maybe you all already know this) shows that there is Shufflemaster and Shuffle Tech. Two different companies making shufflers. Maybe there are others, so feel free to add to this. But from what I can see in various sales copy, the Deckmate dominates the market and the Shuffle Tech is the little guy. One ad stated that Deckmate was used in every major casino in Vegas. Exaggeration?

Found this pic in a sales ad. If all Deckmates are marked like this, it should be an easy task to identify if they are being used at any table you sit down at.

View attachment 991305

I believe the DM2 is made by Shufflemaster. It’s basically the latest and greatest version of the original Shufflemaster shufflers.
The original Shufflemaster started showing up in AC casinos around the 2008 time frame and seemed like it did a great job of speeding up the game.

As the technology improved and the machines started doing more than JUST speeding up the shuffling process is when I personally noticed the difference in hand action.
The DM2 has a “sort mode” that it can be put in. The “sort mode” can put a randomly shuffled deck of cards back in its original fresh from the pack order. I witnessed this at Maryland Live casino once and it instantly created many questions for me about the legitimacy of these machines.

Anyways, you can take my opinion however you like. I’ve played in the game long enough to know that I’ll only sit in games that are HAND shuffled going forward.
If this means I never play cards in a major casino again, that’s just fine by me. It’s way more fun being at the table with just PCF members or your local group of regulars.
DM2 casino poker is the worst kind of poker IMO. Spend a couple hundred hours of your life playing it and you’ll have a full understanding.

All the best.

 

[upNdown]

I believe the DM2 is made by Shufflemaster. It’s basically the latest and greatest version of the original Shufflemaster shufflers.
The original Shufflemaster started showing up in AC casinos around the 2008 time frame and seemed like it did a great job of speeding up the game.

As the technology improved and the machines started doing more than JUST speeding up the shuffling process is when I personally noticed the difference in hand action.
The DM2 has a “sort mode” that it can be put in. The “sort mode” can put a randomly shuffled deck of cards back in its original fresh from the pack order. I witnessed this at Maryland Live casino once and it instantly created many questions for me about the legitimacy of these machines.

Anyways, you can take my opinion however you like. I’ve played in the game long enough to know that I’ll only sit in games that are HAND shuffled going forward.
If this means I never play cards in a major casino again, that’s just fine by me. It’s way more fun being at the table with just PCF members or your local group of regulars.
DM2 casino poker is the worst kind of poker IMO. Spend a couple hundred hours of your life playing it and you’ll have a full understanding.

All the best.

Do you think there’s widespread DM2 game manipulation going on, or are you just refusing to play at those tables out of an abundance of caution, because you know it’s possible?

 

[Highli99]

I believe the DM2 is made by Shufflemaster. It’s basically the latest and greatest version of the original Shufflemaster shufflers.
The original Shufflemaster started showing up in AC casinos around the 2008 time frame and seemed like it did a great job of speeding up the game.

As the technology improved and the machines started doing more than JUST speeding up the shuffling process is when I personally noticed the difference in hand action.
The DM2 has a “sort mode” that it can be put in. The “sort mode” can put a randomly shuffled deck of cards back in its original fresh from the pack order. I witnessed this at Maryland Live casino once and it instantly created many questions for me about the legitimacy of these machines.

Anyways, you can take my opinion however you like. I’ve played in the game long enough to know that I’ll only sit in games that are HAND shuffled going forward.
If this means I never play cards in a major casino again, that’s just fine by me. It’s way more fun being at the table with just PCF members or your local group of regulars.
DM2 casino poker is the worst kind of poker IMO. Spend a couple hundred hours of your life playing it and you’ll have a full understanding.

All the best.

This feels a little like the “online poker is rigged argument”. I see the risk of DM2s but I also see that risk a lot higher in home games than regulated casinos. I have seen no evidence that casino operators are using DM2s to set up coolers.

 

[krafticus]

This feels a little like the “online poker is rigged argument”. I see the risk of DM2s but I also see that risk a lot higher in home games than regulated casinos. I have seen no evidence that casino operators are using DM2s to set up coolers.

I don't see how that would benefit the casino in any way either. I assume the last thing they'd want to do is pay out a huge BBJ as well.
There are probably more shady dealers in underground games that take bigger rake then in a casino that is regulated.

my $.02

 

[Machine]

I find that places that hand shuffle without a 'box' drives me nuts, I wouldn't play with a deckmate 2 at a home game. I have a shuffle tech and I'm just happy with it.

Did you know .... It can also tell you which seat has the winning hand, after it spits out the packets on shuffle

 

[skylines]

I don't see how that would benefit the casino in any way either. I assume the last thing they'd want to do is pay out a huge BBJ as well.
There are probably more shady dealers in underground games that take bigger rake then in a casino that is regulated.

my $.02

Agree no incentive for a legitimate casino. Poker is barely a money maker and would never be worth the license risk if caught. Also, who would they want to win? As far as paying out BBJ, they probably would love to pay it out without it being huge. They can't touch the money anyway, and small wins likely to be gambled vs big wins that just pay off debts/gets spent on big ticket items off property.

I wouldn't automatically assume a home game had one to cheat, but I'd definitely be more cautious/attentive of irregularities. Especially true as stakes increase.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Do you think there’s widespread DM2 game manipulation going on, or are you just refusing to play at those tables out of an abundance of caution, because you know it’s possible?

I couldn’t tell you if there was INTENTIONAL widespread manipulation going on or not. I do believe 100% the gaming industry feels they generate maximum rake in their card rooms using these machines.
Rake per hand usually comes down to pot size. Back in the days of Atlantic City hand shuffled games, rake was typically $1 for every $10 in any one pot maxing out at $4 once a pot reached $40.
Wouldn’t it be most profitable for a casino if almost every pot was $40 or more and hands per hour were increased by 7-10?
Not possible with just the human element dealing hands but introduce technology into the mix and who knows (somebody knows) the possibilities.

There are many things in life I enjoy that don’t have to have a “tech” element added to them. Sitting down to play cards is one of them. If one enjoys sitting in a casino playing cards and getting more hands in per hour, by all means one should do ones thing.
When the game gets interrupted once every hour and a half so they can reload the dealers trays with a few fresh racks of $1 dollar chips, one might start to get the feeling of who’s really doing the profiting at the table.
Like I’ve mentioned, take a couple hundred hours of your life and experience for one’s self.
Till then, I’ll see you at a PCF meet up or a regular home game.
Enjoy those DM2 dealt games if that’s your thing.

 

[Frogzilla]

It’s going to vary by room, right? However, I’m a little skeptical, see it to believe it. The scheme doesn’t sound like it’d be profitable for the card room (however, maybe some card room manager wrongly came to the conclusion it would)
-if capped rake, usually bigger pots don’t do much to house take
-wet dynamic boards take longer to play out in general. Tanks, counting down stacks, etc. no one tanks on k82
-coolers bust people, and people busting will break the game faster

 

[Rakrul]

I find that places that hand shuffle without a 'box' drives me nuts, I wouldn't play with a deckmate 2 at a home game. I have a shuffle tech and I'm just happy with it.

Did you know .... It can also tell you which seat has the winning hand, after it spits out the packets on shuffle

How does it know how many players are at the table?

 

[Lil Tuna]

How does it know how many players are at the table?

It’s programmed into the machine by the dealer when you sit down.

 

[Rakrul]

It’s programmed into the machine by the dealer when you sit down.

Why? How? Doesn't it only have one green button for opening the lid and presenting the deck?
Also, why would it care? It's just supposed to shuffle a deck.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

How does it know how many players are at the table?

It’s programmed into the machine by the dealer when you sit down.

On the surface, this alone seems like a giant red flag. I'd like to ask Shuffle master or the casinos what possible reason there is for the shuffler to know how many players are at the table???

 

[Lemonzest]

I'll say this about the shufflers. I won't go near a black jack table that uses them. Not for the obvious reason of keeping a reasonable score of what left in the chute but the fact that I've never seen so many 14's and 15's in any given sitting. Do I think the house manipulates the deck? Fuck yes. Why would anybody expect they wouldn't?
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the same was happening at all table games. Let it Ride is another notoriously funny game where all the players seemingly share cards every hand.

I am not saying you are wrong but wow. Big if true.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Why? How? Doesn't it only have one green button for opening the lid and presenting the deck?
Also, why would it care? It's just supposed to shuffle a deck.

The technology lets a casino know which tables have open seating. It also keeps track of a players time at the table for comp purposes.
If you have the “Bravo” app on your phone, this information is also used to keep the info on Bravo current.

 

[Machine]

Did you know .... It can also tell you which seat has the winning hand, after it spits out the packets on shuffle

I went looking for the video that I seen, it might have been an article. I can't cite a source and I am fallible, but this is how I remember it.

There are positives to this, it (the shuffler) can spot different card backs, and it can spot missing cards. I'd rather a 1.0 version over these benefits

 

[Rakrul]

The technology lets a casino know which tables have open seating. It also keeps track of a players time at the table for comp purposes.
If you have the “Bravo” app on your phone, this information is also used to keep the info on Bravo current.

Yeah I know, but I can't imagine that system being linked to the shuffler.

I looked at the operating manual and it has a touch screen so that would allow you to enter number of players but nowhere in the manual does it mention this and it's not on any of the menus. Further more, there's no port for connecting any hardware to it, apart from the touch screen so I'm calling the player count an urban legend.
For jailbreaked devices, anything could be programmed but it would be a huge red flag.

 

[Coyote]

I 'd only trust mechanical shufflers; down to cheapest ones (you can replace them when they break down at a negligible cost)

 

[dukeshow33]

Smart shufflers are the Devil!

I played Pai Gow at Resort World recently where they have the latest and greatest technology in Vegas. Both their smart tables, which know how much you have in the betting ring regardless of chip value and their smart shuffler, know every hand that was shuffled prior to dealing. The dealer used to roll dice to determine who received the cards first, now the little LED screen on the table lets you know. One of the players at our table was not playing the Envy bonus and was dealt a Royal. Now that we look back, it was the least risk to the casino, but still rousing the table with a big hand. That individual actually pushed the hand, won zero dollars, and all the rest of us received $50 bucks for our envy bonus. Everyone happy, except the bozo not playing the bonus. Two hands later, the dealer had three pair and did not know the house rules, so she used the LED to let her know which pair to put in her two card hand. As the table chatter increased between us strangers, the dealer/pit boss basically admitted the shuffler knew what was going to be dealt.

Let's just say, we still had fun, won some money, but did have an hour cooler where the dealer could not stop getting straights, flushes, etc; You are essentially playing a slot machine as they have the ability to now control where the cards hit and how often. ie. If the shuffler deals a 7 card straight flush, they have the option of burying it at an open seat, dealing it to the dealer or giving it to the player of their choice if the jackpot is due to hit.

I understand their point of going to this practice, but we looked for other venues to continue to play that game. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in all the shuffler games.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Smart shufflers are the Devil!

I played Pai Gow at Resort World recently where they have the latest and greatest technology in Vegas. Both their smart tables, which know how much you have in the betting ring regardless of chip value and their smart shuffler, know every hand that was shuffled prior to dealing. The dealer used to roll dice to determine who received the cards first, now the little LED screen on the table lets you know. One of the players at our table was not playing the Envy bonus and was dealt a Royal. Now that we look back, it was the least risk to the casino, but still rousing the table with a big hand. That individual actually pushed the hand, won zero dollars, and all the rest of us received $50 bucks for our envy bonus. Everyone happy, except the bozo not playing the bonus. Two hands later, the dealer had three pair and did not know the house rules, so she used the LED to let her know which pair to put in her two card hand. As the table chatter increased between us strangers, the dealer/pit boss basically admitted the shuffler knew what was going to be dealt.

Let's just say, we still had fun, won some money, but did have an hour cooler where the dealer could not stop getting straights, flushes, etc; You are essentially playing a slot machine as they have the ability to now control where the cards hit and how often. ie. If the shuffler deals a 7 card straight flush, they have the option of burying it at an open seat, dealing it to the dealer or giving it to the player of their choice if the jackpot is due to hit.

I understand their point of going to this practice, but we looked for other venues to continue to play that game. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in all the shuffler games.

Thanks for this update. I’ve not looked into it much at all because like “who’s going to believe you”?
As a player who spent hundreds of hours playing in casinos pre shuffle machines and hundreds of hours playing after their induction, you tend to notice different ebbs and flows about things.

So yeah to the “it could never happens,” “the gaming commission wouldn’t allow it” blah blah blah, I’m just a crazy fool who has NO IDEA what I’ve witnessed with my own eyes.
It’s in a casinos best interest to take your money any way they can.
I can’t understand why a casino would invest the thousands of dollars they do per machine if the returns from using these machines wasn’t astronomically profitable for them.

Casinos, shuffle machine companies, gaming commissions and oh yeah politicians could probably never be in cahoots when comes to bleeding suckers out of their money.
Could never never never ever ever ever happen.
I really don’t know Jack Shit but I did stay at a Holliday Inn Express last night.

 

[glynn]

Could never never never ever ever ever happen.

You should be willing to wager some amount of money at some odds and bounded by some timeframe that a casino under the jurisdiction of the gaming commission will be found to be cheating in this way. Let me know those figures and I'll get my bank on the line for a cash advance if needed.

 

[Lil Tuna]

You should be willing to wager some amount of money at some odds and bounded by some timeframe that a casino under the jurisdiction of the gaming commission will be found to be cheating in this way. Let me know those figures and I'll get my bank on the line for a cash advance if needed.

I really don’t care all that much about it. I don’t spend time in casinos anymore. I just happened to surprisingly get the day off today and figured I’d entertain this thread a little.

 

[upNdown]

There’s always the whole correlation / causation thing.
I know for a fact I’ve had better results at rooms that hand shuffle vs rooms with deckmates. There’s certainly a correlation. But the actual causation has nothing to do with the shuffling - the truth is that I do better at hand-shuffle rooms because they’re cheaper, more remote locations where less skilled players play. I’m not getting beaten by the auto-shuffler; I’m getting beaten by better players who are attracted to bigger rooms where there’s more money floating around.
Just a thought.

 

[Darson]

I've never played in a card room with automated shufflers - is it practice that they just take the deck out and deal or do they cut first? I think a lot of this uncertainty can be negated with a single cut.

 

[lib]

I've never played in a card room with automated shufflers - is it practice that they just take the deck out and deal or do they cut first? I think a lot of this uncertainty can be negated with a single cut.

They always cut.

 

[Lil Tuna]

I've never played in a card room with automated shufflers - is it practice that they just take the deck out and deal or do they cut first? I think a lot of this uncertainty can be negated with a single cut.

Possibly.
When I shuffle chips while sitting at the table I usually prefer to shuffle 12 but sometimes I’ll do 14. I’m not a professional chip shuffler but I typically can cut an even amount almost every time I go to shuffle.
Can a shuffle machine that can put a completely shuffled deck back in order also account for a cut by a professional dealer if it’s predetermining a winning seat?

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

They always cut.

But the Deckmate 2 tells the dealer EXACTLY where to cut...

 

[upNdown]

Possibly.
When I shuffle chips while sitting at the table I usually prefer to shuffle 12 but sometimes I’ll do 14. I’m not a professional chip shuffler but I typically can cut an even amount almost every time I go to shuffle.
Can a shuffle machine that can put a completely shuffled deck back in order also account for a cut by a professional dealer if it’s predetermining a winning seat?

And that’s where I wash my hands of this theory entirely. Once a casino starts involving dealers in intentionally cheating players, they’ve instantly made that employee far more expensive than however much they could make by maxing out their rake.
I agree that it’s possible. I agree players should be wary. But I’m not concerned about this in a regulated casino.

 

[lib]

But the Deckmate 2 tells the dealer EXACTLY where to cut...

After spending countless hours analysing the hexdump of the microcontroller on one of these machines I found a interesting piece of code. It seems that if the dealer insert the deck with JhKs on the bottom of the deck it'll spit out a shuffle where AA/KK/72 will be dealt to UTG/+1/+2 in a 6max game if the deck is cut exactly in the middle. The flop will be AK7 and turn will be 7 and river 2.

 

[glynn]

But the Deckmate 2 tells the dealer EXACTLY where to cut...

v3 is going to cut the deck for you.