Bad shuffling techniques - say something or STFU? (3 Viewers)

[LotsOfChips]

I am hosting a series of home game tournaments, with rotating self deal and shuffle behind. I have noticed in this game (and in several other games that I attend but do not host) that a few of the players use "overhand shuffles" exclusively to shuffle the cards. The problem (as I see it) is that:

• a) they seem to simply cycle the same clumps of cards over and over again, not really mixing the cards at all
• b) I (and others) can see the bottoms of the cards when they do it, letting some players know the relative position of several cards in the deck

Before my first tournament, I included in my house rules that overhand shuffling was not recommended, and that riffle shuffle (5 riffles minimum) or riffle/box combination shuffle was preferred. I included the above concerns as reasons for the rule, and mentioned that if anyone had difficulty shuffling, that they could pass the shuffle to a different player. I emailed a link to the house rules to all of the participants before the game. It didn't seem to have much effect.

Some of the players who do this are fairly old, and have likely been shuffling this way for years (if not decades), and either don't realize why overhand shuffling is not preferred, or just don't care.

I'm hosting my second tournament in about 6 weeks. I was considering sending an email to all players prior to the game requesting that they use riffle shuffles rather than overhand shuffles, and explaining the reasons behind the request, along with a link to a YouTube video on how to riffle shuffle. But I don't want to upset or offend any of these players. As I mentioned, most of them are fairly old and set in their ways, and probably don't see it as a problem.

Am I being too anal about this? Should I say something, or just hold my breath and let things go on as they are?

 

[NickyT]

You have a right to be concerned with with getting a good proper shuffle.

From what you described, being older players who do the overhand shuffle, it might physical be tough for them to do the riffle shuffle. Fingers might not be as flexible as they used to and they might be embarrassed to even attempt a riffle shuffle since a failure could send the cards flying and be quite the embarrassment.

Maybe say something to the overhand shufflers away from the table and see if they would be open to doing riffle shuffles or you could shuffle the deck for them, since it might be easier and less stressful for them.

I mention this because a game I'm in, I've noticed a few older gents do the overhand shuffle and they I can see some visible suffer from arthritis in their fingers and or have damaged fingers.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

 

[bubz_davis]

I remember the first game I ever hosted I was reading the rules and said "shuffling should be riffle riffle box riffle" and the entire table looked at me funny. That game I just kinda let go and it seemed like all but maybe 2 guys were decent enough at it.

Now a days, if I see only overhand shuffling or someone struggling, I just take it in a friendly manor and say "hey lemme take care of it" or "hey Larry mind helping him" if someone's closer. Usually people know they arent shuffling very well and give the deck right up.

I totally get the older crowd not having the ability to riffle shuffle anymore. I have a group of younger guys with no excuses, so if they dont know how, I send them home with a deck and tell them to have a riffle shuffle down for next time . I suppose you could also just wash the deck before it goes to one of those people, then I really doesnt matter.

Edit: I just noticed your point b, I guess I read too fast. That is definitely a big deal, that would get a "hey we can see the cards youre shuffling, let so and so shuffle it for you" pretty quickly out of me. I dont hate your idea of an email, if you do send it I would mandate proper shuffling. That way theres no confusion as to why you have someone take over shuffling for another person.

 

[LotsOfChips]

View attachment 1646607

My next tourney is a three table event. I'm struggling to justify one ShuffleTech, three of them is way out of my price point.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Why require 5 riffles when its riffle, riffle, strip & riffle then cut?
Overhand shuffling can be accomplished without exposing cards.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

My next tourney is a three table event. I'm struggling to justify one ShuffleTech, three of them is way out of my price point.

Yeah I figured that might be the case. My post was more of a joke.

In all seriousness I went thru exactly what you're going thru in my single table cash game. The sad part was the players weren't old. I tried for years to teach people to little success. Then I discovered the Shuffletech back in 2018ish & never looked back. They were also like $450 instead of $850 (current price) which is complete bullsh*t as it's the exact same model

 

[LotsOfChips]

Why require 5 riffles when its riffle, riffle, strip & riffle then cut?

Yeah, that's the preferred method, but it's going to be hard enough to get them to simply riffle, let alone do both riffle and strip. I did include that as a possibility (although I didn't specify numbers, and I said box instead of strip), but if they're only riffling, I added a couple extra to ensure full mixing of the cards.

Overhand shuffling can be accomplished without exposing cards.

Yes, it can, but it isn't.

The way these players are doing it, I've observed the same three clumps of cards just being cycled over and over again. The exposed bottom card from the bottom section ends up on the bottom of the deck 1/3 of the time, the exposed bottom card of the middle section ends up on the bottom of the deck 1/3 of the time, and the exposed bottom card of the top section ends up on the bottom of the deck 1/3 of the time. I can pretty much tell where the exposed cards are in the deck after the cut just about every time, so I imagine other observant players can as well.

 

[jamesjkim]

Maybe have them wash the cards a bit before shuffling (with whichever method they choose) while being mindful of exposing the bottom card.

 

[ekricket]

Yeah, that's the preferred method, but it's going to be hard enough to get them to simply riffle, let alone do both riffle and strip. I did include that as a possibility (although I didn't specify numbers, and I said box instead of strip), but if they're only riffling, I added a couple extra to ensure full mixing of the cards.


Yes, it can, but it isn't.

The way these players are doing it, I've observed the same three clumps of cards just being cycled over and over again. The exposed bottom card from the bottom section ends up on the bottom of the deck 1/3 of the time, the exposed bottom card of the middle section ends up on the bottom of the deck 1/3 of the time, and the exposed bottom card of the top section ends up on the bottom of the deck 1/3 of the time. I can pretty much tell where the exposed cards are in the deck after the cut just about every time, so I imagine other observant players can as well.

They probably have the “it’s good enough” mentality.

 

[upNdown]

I say let the old guys do their thing. Having rules about the shuffle does seem to be on the anal side to me.
And for whatever it's worth, for years I tried to gain an edge by following cards through a sloppy shuffle. I can't remember it ever helping me. Maybe I'm dumb. And maybe I'm a lax host. But that's my opinion.

 

[Machine]

Why require 5 riffles when its riffle, riffle, strip & riffle then cut?

Shuffle, shuffle, box shuffle is a casino/houseman oppression; it is designed to maximize the rake, not the quality of the game.

Even if you argue hands per hour, quality is still a better venture. 1 or 2 more shuffles won't really diminish the number of hands.
By shuffling more, you provide better randomization. Here is a paper on randomization presented by one of our own. There is a point of diminishing returns. This also matters when opening a fresh setup; you'd want to shuffle at least 12 times to generate sufficient randomness.

I can't stand a dealer that won't box, I don't tip and I don't typically come back.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Personally I do 3 to 4 riffles then strip (box) then riffle and pass the deck to my left with the cut card on top.

 

[upNdown]

Shuffle, shuffle, box shuffle is a casino/houseman oppression; it is designed to maximize the rake, not the quality of the game.

Even if you argue hands per hour, quality is still a better venture. 1 or 2 more shuffles won't really diminish the number of hands.
By shuffling more, you provide better randomization. Here is a paper on randomization presented by one of our own. There is a point of diminishing returns. This also matters when opening a fresh setup; you'd want to shuffle at least 12 times to generate sufficient randomness.

I can't stand a dealer that won't box, I don't tip and I don't typically come back.

Yes! Even though I’m taking the STFU side of the discussion for a home game with old guys, if we have any interest in maximum randomization, riffle rifle box riffle is a joke. And if you’re passing the deal with two decks, you usually have enough time to riffle as many times as you want. So riffle the eff away!

 

[Coyote]

Many, many people, even those acknowledging the need for propper riffles, ARE NOT DEXTEROUS OR YOUNG ENOUGH to do that in any meaningful way, or length of time.

Forget about expensive shuffling machines, and get one cheapo for each of your tables, with one "table captain" responsible for each table's machine.
Even a single riffle by a cheap machine is a lot better than bored manual "overhand" shuffles.

Edit: Needless to say, two decks are required per table, one in play, one in the cheap machine.

Btw, that's the only meaningful way of having home games too (actually, any game), IMHO, unless you have a dedicated, non-playing dealer.

 

[4SUMERZ]

Self dealing will result in most not able or unwilling to rifle shuffle. I host a game of 8, and I am the only one at the table that rifle shuffles. Some do the wash shuffle, but I do insist that after any shuffle, overhand or otherwise, that after the shuffle, the player behind the dealer cut the cards on a "cut" card, that way no one can see the bottom card when the hole cards are dealt. Prior to any of my games, I use a cheap shuffler many times on all the 5 decks, ,then rifle shuffle the decks of cards to thoroughly mix up the cards well. Once the game starts, we then change decks sfter each hour of play. We play for 4.5 hours and use all 5 decks. The last 30 minutes is played, then once around the table with that 5th deck. Surprisingly, it works well, without having similar flops in that hour per deck.

 

[T_Chan]

Bring out several decks of cards which are sorted in order. Get everyone to shuffle the cards as they normally do but don't tell them why. Tell everyone to then flip the cards face up and fan them out and see the order of the cards. Then you explain to them "this is why we need to riffle" when they'll plainly see big clumps of cards still in order.

If your players can't riffle (from old hands or something), they can always do a wash.

I had a player once (at a charity game) deal the first hand from a sorted deck. After a stupendous few overhand shuffles, sure enough by the river he deals out the majority of a straight flush.

 

[Huskerchipper]

I guess my question is, is your game a high stakes highly competitive game or more of a laid back social game??? I could never get all of my players to shuffle in a professional style and I have others that physically couldn't if they wanted to. I admit that I do get frustrated with some of my players shuffling but that's something I generally keep to myself. To me, it's not worth embarrassing some of my players and making them feel incapable. To each their own but home games that are continually adding new players, this would probably turn 90% of those new players away. If it did bother me that much i would buy 3 shuffletechs and implement them vs forcing technique with dealing. Good luck.

 

[LotsOfChips]

is your game a high stakes highly competitive game or more of a laid back social game??

It's relatively low stakes ($50 buy in), and most of the crowd is pretty social, but there's a high percentage of pretty good players (including several who aren't the best shufflers), and there is definitely a fair degree of competition involved.

To me, it's not worth embarrassing some of my players and making them feel incapable.

This is a big concern for me as well. I wouldn't want to call anyone out during the game, but I thought that a general note to everyone in a pre-game email might be a low impact way of getting at least a few of the players to sharpen their shuffling skills a bit.

this would probably turn 90% of those new players away.

That is something that I definitely don't want to do.

i would buy 3 shuffletechs and implement them vs forcing technique with dealing

LOL, when I win the lottery, I'll definitely do that.

 

[Nymor]

I used to be a rubbish shuffler but put a bit of time in, and you don't need much, to get better and now bad shuffling winds me up unnecessarily

We do have a couple of players that find it difficult due to stiff joints etc so this isn't about them but people who have no excuse. It's the slowness that annoys me the most and sometimes I look around the table at my local pub league and know I'm in for a treat We're on a clock ffs!

The overhand shufflers are clearly the worst as they expose so many cards sometimes that you have to ask them to give the pack another "quick" mix after they've finished and they've already had them in their hands for a minute+

Next are those that think they're doing good but it's just painful to watch as they adjust their hands completely to do each riffle. It doesn't help that so many guides do this as well. I just google image searched "card shuffling" and every single image was the wrong technique (imo), thumbs on the ends of the pack. Players who shuffle this way and not any faster than the overhand ones.

Thumbs on the side of the deck, riffle, riffle .. etc with no change of hand position - bang 10 seconds done!

At my home games we use 2 packs and shuffle behind and that's an absolute godsend - do it if you don't already. Most of my players are relatively good but those that need some practice can get it without any pressure on them to be fast.

 

[Old State]

View attachment 1646607

I finally caved and went this direction. Should have it tomorrow

Most people can’t shuffle and don’t care to learn. They take too long, get distracted, make mistakes, etc. This is why I’ve always maintained the two deck systems benefits are exaggerated….mostly because of this reality.

I can do a casino shuffle with a wash in under 20 secs…usually 15. It took a little practice years ago but easy to master. In almost every game I’ve played in with two decks being used…the current hand ends before the next deck is ready …quite often….and when it is ready the pot is still being collected and pushed. If the winner is the next dealer or shuffler that also slows it down and negates the perceived times savings

I’d prefer a full table of competent shufflers using one deck vs two decks with your typical crowd. I hate the clutter and the passing of the cards. So much so I just spent $4K on a shuffler

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

I finally caved and went this direction. Should have it tomorrow

Most people can’t shuffle and don’t care to learn. They take too long, get distracted, make mistakes, etc. This is why I’ve always maintained the two deck systems benefits are exaggerated….mostly because of this reality.

I can do a casino shuffle with a wash in under 20 secs…usually 15. It took a little practice years ago but easy to master. In almost every game I’ve played in with two decks being used…the current hand ends before the next deck is ready …quite often….and when it is ready the pot is still being collected and pushed. If the winner is the next dealer or shuffler that also slows it down and negates the perceived times savings

I’d prefer a full table of competent shufflers using one deck vs two decks with your typical crowd. I hate the clutter and the passing of the cards. So much so I just spent $4K on a shuffler

You're going to love it!!!

 

[upNdown]

I finally caved and went this direction. Should have it tomorrow

Most people can’t shuffle and don’t care to learn. They take too long, get distracted, make mistakes, etc. This is why I’ve always maintained the two deck systems benefits are exaggerated….mostly because of this reality.

I can do a casino shuffle with a wash in under 20 secs…usually 15. It took a little practice years ago but easy to master. In almost every game I’ve played in with two decks being used…the current hand ends before the next deck is ready …quite often….and when it is ready the pot is still being collected and pushed. If the winner is the next dealer or shuffler that also slows it down and negates the perceived times savings

I’d prefer a full table of competent shufflers using one deck vs two decks with your typical crowd. I hate the clutter and the passing of the cards. So much so I just spent $4K on a shuffler

I don’t think there are any easy answers with a pass the deal game. Some people swear by the deckmate or the shuffletech. Personally I can’t stand all the passing back and forth of the decks, to and from the guy sitting near the shuffler. But I also can’t stand waiting for a slow guy to finish shuffling. Six of one, half dozen of the other. But I’d suggest trying it on a side cart first, before I went cutting a hole in my table.

 

[Old State]

I don’t think there are any easy answers with a pass the deal game. Some people swear by the deckmate or the shuffletech. Personally I can’t stand all the passing back and forth of the decks, to and from the guy sitting near the shuffler. But I also can’t stand waiting for a slow guy to finish shuffling. Six of one, half dozen of the other. But I’d suggest trying it on a side cart first, before I went cutting a hole in my table.

Well with a shuffler…at least you know the cards actually get shuffled. Most of what I see at a home games could be described as “giving them a once over” vs a shuffle.

Also, at least for the short term, my son has been dealing many of my games….which is another issue…most people can’t pitch cards. We had a record of misdeals my last game. Once I have the shuffle I may be tempered to deal or maybe split the deal with someone sitting across from me…if my son isn’t available

 

[legend672]

To me , not being able to shuffle a deck of cards properly is pretty sad. The cards should never leave the surface of the table for starters. Y’all should have to learn in order to sit down and play .

 

[Pinkdan]

lol I’m such a chipper I figured this was about shuffling chips

 

[thePokerClub]

I always ask my players to throw in a riffle or two...

 

[TheWhat]

My next tourney is a three table event. I'm struggling to justify one ShuffleTech, three of them is way out of my price point.

I made the jump to one, and love it to the point I almost want a second, as we'd all hate to shuffle again. Thats for those that can, and cannot shuffle adequately.

 

[Isorg]

i always scoop up cards, than stack em... I know that people can see the bottom card when i do this. So it's box, riffle, riffle, box, riffle, cut, deal 30 seconds