Cheating allegations at Stones

MatB

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2015
Messages
5,870
Reaction score
7,578
Location
MA
I don’t know much about gambling laws or anything about California law, but one thing I read is that the damages are theoretical.
Even if you could prove that somebody cheated in a hand, in most cases, you can’t prove that if he hadn’t cheated, how much you would have won (or wouldn’t have lost) in any given hand. And there’s really no way to prove precise damages in an entire session. In other words, you might have lost all your money anyway, even if the game was 100% straight.

That sounds a little bizarre, if someones cheating why not assume it as all ill gotten gains? Seems fair.

If they are cheating. Then it shouldn't matter IMO.
 

upNdown

Straight Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
9,357
Reaction score
9,956
Location
boston
Another thing I read, implied that this prohibition on suing for gambling losses predated legalized gambling in CA. That would make sense - there’s not a court in the country where up can sue your drug dealer - it’s the doctrine of “unclean hands” - if you get screwed doing dirty deeds, you’re on your own.
It also sounded like this precedent was upheld while gambling was legal in CA (though who knows about the specifics of that case) but that it might be appropriate for an appellate court to revisit that precedent.
 

Taghkanic

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
3,090
Reaction score
2,893
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
It also sounded like this precedent was upheld while gambling was legal in CA (though who knows about the specifics of that case) but that it might be appropriate for an appellate court to revisit that precedent.
Something they can argue on appeal, for sure. But it seems the State’s attitude is to view all gamblers as degenerates who get what they deserve if cheated... If you’re gambling, whatever happens is your problem.

Anyway, here’s the link to the full decision and a screenshot of a key excerpt:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/58...ing Defendant_s Motion .pdf?ver=1591217961298

AFBDF82B-DD79-4996-ABC3-3417F6E46ACB.jpeg
 

upNdown

Straight Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
9,357
Reaction score
9,956
Location
boston
That sounds a little bizarre, if someones cheating why not assume it as all ill gotten gains? Seems fair.

If they are cheating. Then it shouldn't matter IMO.
Yeah, but think about how courts operate. It's never about what's fair. It's about what you can prove. And if you lost $1,000 in a session, even if you can prove that he cheated, you can't prove that if he hadn't cheated, you wouldn't have lost $1,000.
 

Taghkanic

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
3,090
Reaction score
2,893
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
Most people won’t read the decision and the casino and Postle can just misrepresent the decision as “we were found innocent by the judge” and few will know that is not what he ruled.
 

Kain8

Flush
Joined
Sep 16, 2016
Messages
1,131
Reaction score
1,895
Location
Regina, Canada
Yeah, but think about how courts operate. It's never about what's fair. It's about what you can prove. And if you lost $1,000 in a session, even if you can prove that he cheated, you can't prove that if he hadn't cheated, you wouldn't have lost $1,000.
Sobering but true. There is an abstract form of "justice" that will never be taken away. For the rest of his sniveling, rat-faced life, Mike Postle will have to look around everywhere like Tony Soprano does in the final scene within the diner.

That gives me a modicum of comfort.
 

tabletalker7

Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
1,116
Reaction score
1,330
Location
Buffalo NY
That sounds a little bizarre, if someones cheating why not assume it as all ill gotten gains? Seems fair.

If they are cheating. Then it shouldn't matter IMO.
It isn't about whether his gains were ill gotten, it is about your total losses and what would have happened if the ill gotten things did not occur.
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
13,228
Reaction score
21,628
Location
America's High-Five
I haven't read the Opinion, but...

If all the players except Mike Postle are playing poker and mid session, Postle comes in wearing a ski mask, robs the game taking everyone's chips and is later identified trying to cash them in... Everyone agrees Postle can be held civilly culpable (in addition to whatever criminal charges exist)? And let's say a Stones employee was in on it by calling Postle and letting him know when to strike and which entrances/exits to use. Maybe even that employee was to split the take with Postle. Everyone agrees that the employee could also be sued civilly (Stones is probably clear because the employee's illegal actions are outside the course and scope of his employment)?

So the only difference here is that Postle was also playing rather than just coming in and robbing the game?

Typically, in ruling on such a motion, the evidence must be construed in the light most favorable to the non-moving party (the Plaintiffs). At a minimum, I think there is a question of fact (the typical standard to survive a dispositive motion) as to whether the chips (money) were lost as a result of gambling rather than theft.
 
Last edited:

Frogzilla

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
2,438
Reaction score
3,407
Location
Frisco, TX
I haven't read the Opinion, but...

If all the players except Mike Postle are playing poker and mid session, Postle comes in wearing a ski mask, robs the game taking everyone's chips and is later identified trying to cash them in... Everyone agrees Postle can be held civilly culpable (in addition to whatever criminal charges exist)? And let's say a Stones employee was in on it by calling Postle and letting him know when to strike and which entrances/exits to use. Maybe even that employee was to split the take with Postle. Everyone agrees that the employee could also be sued civilly (Stones is probably clear because the employee's illegal actions are outside the course and scope of his employment)?

So the only difference here is that Postle was also playing rather than just coming in and robbing the game?

Typically, in ruling in such a motion, the evidence must be construed in the light most favorable to the non-moving party (the Plaintiffs). At a minimum, I think there is a question of fact (the typical standard to survive a dispositive motion) as to whether the chips (money) were lost as a result of gambling rather than theft.
I think it comes down to the damages. In the theft scenario it’s super trivial to see how much was stolen. In the “got a feed of the hole card” scenario, not so much. And apparently CA won’t have any of these speculative damage type stuff.

Good luck with appeals fellas
 

SpaceMonkey420

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
691
Reaction score
775
Location
West Side USA
Played with Mike many times. Nor cal low level player. Mostly played thunder valley casino down the road. They have all the entry level tourneys. Funny to watch him go from losing all the low level multi tables to turning into a cash god on the stream. Jonathan the director is a crook too. I’ve ran games for years, first time I met him he wanted me to move a game there. All I could think of when he was talking was “perpetrator.” -
 

Anthony Martino

4 of a Kind
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
6,074
Reaction score
8,815
Location
Tampa, FL

grebe

Two Pair
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Messages
369
Reaction score
509
Location
Richmond, VA
I dont watch the stream, nor is there any chance I would ever play with this guy since we live in different worlds...so no dog in the fight. I have heard stuff just in passing, but have never heard any hard evidence, like phone records or an inside witness. Is there any substantial evidence besides some quirky plays and things he said in an interview that make you say hmmmm.... that implicate him?

So, if you all were betting folks.....what would be your odds that you would take to him being guilty or innocent? 2:1? 5:1?

By all means, I am not saying he didnt do anything. Im just curious about the case. I know the poker community wants him to be guilty.
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
13,228
Reaction score
21,628
Location
America's High-Five
I won't pretend that I've watched all the footage, or dissected every hand, but he made some very peculiar plays... coupled with the fact that he seemed to consult his phone mid-hand (crotch-theory optimal) and I recall a screen shot of his phone (from a distance) that seemed to indicate he was receiving hole cards.

All that sounds pretty damning.
 

kmccormick100

4 of a Kind
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
5,042
Reaction score
11,747
Location
Concord, CA
I dont watch the stream, nor is there any chance I would ever play with this guy since we live in different worlds...so no dog in the fight. I have heard stuff just in passing, but have never heard any hard evidence, like phone records or an inside witness. Is there any substantial evidence besides some quirky plays and things he said in an interview that make you say hmmmm.... that implicate him?

So, if you all were betting folks.....what would be your odds that you would take to him being guilty or innocent? 2:1? 5:1?

By all means, I am not saying he didnt do anything. Im just curious about the case. I know the poker community wants him to be guilty.
I've played with him and watched hours of the evidence. I'd lay a decent amount of money at probably 50:1 on his guilt.

I also can't believe Justin (who I knew a little bit) is still maintaining both his and Mike's innocence. That's about as damning as anything that's come out of this.
 

timinater

Flush
Site Vendor
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
1,084
Reaction score
2,225
Location
Saskatchewan
I also can't believe Justin (who I knew a little bit) is still maintaining both his and Mike's innocence. That's about as damning as anything that's come out of this.
Also incredibly damning is the one site he cites as analyzing the actual data just so happens to be owned, or had been owned by one Mike Postle.

https://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/s...uot/page16&s=091d085489ff3ffb952c6b6e0e7f1435

This open letter is not exactly winning me over on Justin's innocence.
 

boltonguy

Two Pair
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
420
Reaction score
431
Location
Boston, MA USA
It is just unreal that these guys are getting away with this. At the very least they will be pariahs in the industry.
 
Top Bottom