Cheating allegations at Stones

v1pe

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There are other methods that have been employed. The question is are you more worried about being on TV, YouTube, etc., or having a secure game? Perhaps both are not attainable at least with RFID cards.
Really not much different than hole cams. Either way there has to be a live data feed of the game that can be taken advantage of if not properly secured.
 

JWC

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Really not much different than hole cams. Either way there has to be a live data feed of the game that can be taken advantage of if not properly secured.
I would probably disagree (however, I won’t be ripping any faces off).

The RFID devices would send a known signal that can be easily processed by a simple computer, whereas a video feed requires much more machine intelligence and processing power to the decode and determine the result.
 

MatB

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Im not too tech savvy, but once theres a criminal probe, could they look into his phone records and his internet use and backtrace ip adresses etc?
 

Joe Harris

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Im not too tech savvy, but once theres a criminal probe, could they look into his phone records and his internet use and backtrace ip adresses etc?
It's not a technical impossibility. However:
1. Communications could have happened via encrypted chat apps which use the internet, not a cell tower. If so, there are no records of conversation and they can have been deleted invisibly.
2. Phones don't generally store long term or detailed information about which sites have been accessed.
3. Accessing the real time hand information would almost certainly have only been possible while on the same LAN as the streaming PC. In other words, he probably cheated without that data traversing the internet (which greatly reduces the chance of some kind of record).

In short, if Postle and friends set their tech up right, there should be no discoverable evidence on his/their devices. It would be easy to miss something, though. They clearly believed they would never get caught, so foresight was apparently in short supply.
 

CdnBeerLover

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Theoretically possible, but it would require physically compromising either the table or the WiFi hotspot the table is connected with. Or hacking the encryption on the data, but good luck with that unless you're the NSA.
It really depends on how the security of the software is implemented. If it relies on the use of a "private" network (e.g. no encryption between client and server, but relies on the security of the network itself), then it's open season if he was able to connect to the network.

That said, I can think of a few ways to determine if he had access to the network used by the table...they surely were not stunned enough to run it on a publicly accessible network. His phone had to get an IP address, and I doubt he used a static IP...
 

Joe Harris

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If it relies on the use of a "private" network (e.g. no encryption between client and server, but relies on the security of the network itself), then it's open season if he was able to connect to the network.
True. I am assuming the guy who implemented the software did a reasonably decent job. Encrypting the raw hand data is trivial compared to the difficulties of the rest of the software, but maybe he assumed that anybody running a stream would actually want to keep it secure.

His phone had to get an IP address, and I doubt he used a static IP...
That is a good point that I hadn't considered. The router may well be able to confirm if Postle's device had been assigned an IP address. That doesn't exactly prove he cheated, but it damn sure would prove Postle had his hand in the forbidden cookie jar.
 

CdnBeerLover

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That is a good point that I hadn't considered. The router may well be able to confirm if Postle's device had been assigned an IP address. That doesn't exactly prove he cheated, but it damn sure would prove Postle had his hand in the forbidden cookie jar.
IMO, that table should be connected on a private network that should only be accessible by the devices required to use the software. That should be very tightly controlled, so it should be difficult to accidentally connect to it, and it should be possible to spot a rogue device or IP (dynamic or static) on the network from the various logs on the devices there. If you can find identifying information about his phone on that network, that would be pretty damning. To be honest, if that link can be established, I would love to hear of another valid reason why his phone was connected to that network. I can't think of one.
 

justsomedude

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It's not a technical impossibility. However:
1. Communications could have happened via encrypted chat apps which use the internet, not a cell tower. If so, there are no records of conversation and they can have been deleted invisibly.
2. Phones don't generally store long term or detailed information about which sites have been accessed.
3. Accessing the real time hand information would almost certainly have only been possible while on the same LAN as the streaming PC. In other words, he probably cheated without that data traversing the internet (which greatly reduces the chance of some kind of record).

In short, if Postle and friends set their tech up right, there should be no discoverable evidence on his/their devices. It would be easy to miss something, though. They clearly believed they would never get caught, so foresight was apparently in short supply.
App data and phones can be wiped. But you can’t delete tower pings, data usage, and call logs at the cell provider.

A few subpoenas to Mike and Justin’s cell services would answer quite a lot of questions.
 

CdnBeerLover

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App data and phones can be wiped. But you can’t delete tower pings, data usage, and call logs at the cell provider.

A few subpoenas to Mike and Justin’s cell services would answer quite a lot of questions.
I suspect the connection was done over wifi. If so, none of that would apply.
 

v1pe

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I would probably disagree (however, I won’t be ripping any faces off).

The RFID devices would send a known signal that can be easily processed by a simple computer, whereas a video feed requires much more machine intelligence and processing power to the decode and determine the result.
Okay, I'll concede that. Although in order to hijack the RFID feed directly I think you would need a much more elaborate hardware "hack" such as additional RFID readers at each card location or a direct line from the RFID reading hardware.

I was more referencing this specific case of the Postle/Stones cheating where the most likely scenario is that there was an additional live feed stream being broadcast by an inside man and accessed by Postle. Hole cams I don't think would offer any additional security relative to that scheme.

I think there's probably some inherent risk in any live streamed or recorded game, regardless of the methods used. It seems that if proper security protocols are put in place there should be very minimal risk though.
 

Tommy

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I wonder if they used burner prepaid phones instead of their personal ones.
 

Highli99

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App data and phones can be wiped. But you can’t delete tower pings, data usage, and call logs at the cell provider.

A few subpoenas to Mike and Justin’s cell services would answer quite a lot of questions.
I sat on the jury for a somewhat infamous murder trial in Baltimore county that relied heavily on cell phone records. It was a student at Woodlawn high school that murdered another student at Woodlawn high school.
 

toynoob

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Great crash course of the legal jargan from Mac the lawyer himself on the legal case he is moving forward with.
 

v1pe

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I sat on the jury for a somewhat infamous murder trial in Baltimore county that relied heavily on cell phone records. It was a student at Woodlawn high school that murdered another student at Woodlawn high school.
Holy shit, for the Lee/Syed trial?
 

Joe Harris

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App data and phones can be wiped. But you can’t delete tower pings, data usage, and call logs at the cell provider.
But their communications (texts, calls) very possibly could have been via cell signal, which should be pretty incriminating in itself.
You don't need to use cell tower-backed methods of communication, though. There are many apps which can facilitate text or verbal chats over the internet. Many of these contain enough encryption that recovering any kind of usable record will not be possible. Especially since Postle has had plenty of time to tie up any loose ends.

I think you would need a much more elaborate hardware "hack" such as additional RFID readers at each card location or a direct line from the RFID reading hardware.
100%. Elaborate schemes involving hardware solutions are a practical impossibility. It is, quite simply, a movie goers fantasy. This cheat was done with software, not hardware.
 

Joe Harris

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@Tommy Pretty sure I heard your question on Joey's interview with Veronica. I wonder how many people realized you were really asking about the chips :ROFL: :ROFLMAO::ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 

Highli99

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Holy shit, for the Lee/Syed trial?
I can see why you guess that, but I was in high school for that one. Mine was a different Woodlawn high school murder years later. The victim was named Steven Parish. He was in a gang and was murdered by his gang because he sent a dick pic via text message and they decided that was grounds for killing. Cell phone evidence was key to the conviction of the gang leader who ordered the killing. Really sad story but taught me a lot about the justice systems and cell phone towers.
 

v1pe

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I can see why you guess that, but I was in high school for that one. Mine was a different Woodlawn high school murder years later. The victim was named Steven Parish. He was in a gang and was murdered by his gang because he sent a dick pic via text message and they decided that was grounds for killing. Cell phone evidence was key to the conviction of the gang leader who ordered the killing. Really sad story but taught me a lot about the justice systems and cell phone towers.
Damn, that's a crazy thing to kill someone over.
 

Marius L

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...
3. Accessing the real time hand information would almost certainly have only been possible while on the same LAN as the streaming PC. In other words, he probably cheated without that data traversing the internet (which greatly reduces the chance of some kind of record).
...
Probably not correct. It seems if he had an inside man in the tech department there, that guy could send Postle a URL accessible from anywhere (no need to be on the same network etc) as long as he had a device with Windows Media player, which would give Postle the live feed of all the info on player's hands and actions straight to his phone.

Matt Berkey figured this out yesterday, and it seems like a very possible explanation for how they did it.

Video link:
 

bradiggy

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I was skeptical on this whole thing up until the finding of the bright blue screen on MP’s phone. This looks to be case closed.

The real question now is what implications does this have on every other stream..from LATB up to the WSOP Main Event and million dollar cash games?

I don’t know how the hard and software can really be improved, it may be a matter of having players go through a metal detector to ensure no electronic devices are on their person. If I were playing for millions of dollars, I’d sure as hell be suspicious of any live stream game if this idiot can get away with this for over a year.
 

1A25R

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Rhe real question now is what implications does this have on every other stream..from LATB up to the WSOP Main Event and million dollar cash games?
I feel like a software update is coming.... because security is strong as the weakest link in the chain.
As Andrew Milner of PokerGFX have said -these systems are only as secure as the people you entrust them to.
So in order to reduce risks new features in the software could be implemented, eventually a modification of the live stream to use a secured channel depending on nominative licencing. (in technical and administrative terms)
I.E. the live steam needs a named licence in exchange of a unique decryption key, therefore you can manage WHO and HOW MANY users have access to the live stream, additionally 2 devices cannot use the same key which made this impossible to share one key on different devices.
 

Joe Harris

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It seems if he had an inside man in the tech department there, that guy could send Postle a URL accessible from anywhere
The inside man could do that. However, it would require explicitly allowing external access to the devices on the internal network. If the inside man had access to the core router on the network, Stones' security is even more lackadaisical than we already believe.

More than that, routers work by storing a table of how remote and local addresses map together. If records from Postle's phone company can verify the IP address history of his phone, and the router has not be restarted in the interim, then this table will definitively prove that Postle accessed the computer processing hand information. That can be considered a smoking gun for the question "Did Postle cheat".

So, the takeaways:
- Remote access is a technical possibility, but would not be possible without additional configuration on the router/firewall.
- Remote access is wildly less secure from a "let's not get caught" perspective.
- Remote access uses a ton of data. Local access uses none.
 
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