Cheating allegations at Stones

Davism72

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There's a lot in that thread about the hand where the graphics for Postle's hand changed midway through. Can someone explain how this might help him cheat? He already knows what his own cards are -- the theory is that he's using the feed to find out what everyone else has.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/mike-postle-cheating-allegations-faq-first-post-1753388/index189.html#post55487200
 

toynoob

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There's a lot in that thread about the hand where the graphics for Postle's hand changed midway through. Can someone explain how this might help him cheat? He already knows what his own cards are -- the theory is that he's using the feed to find out what everyone else has.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/mike-postle-cheating-allegations-faq-first-post-1753388/index189.html#post55487200
It's about throwing the scent off the trail. No way anyone does that play with his actual cards, so they had to make it look like he had a strong hand.
 

JWC

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Sorry for my tardiness in providing meaningful input. But isn’t an RFID deck a form of a marked deck? Who was the genius that thought this was a great idea?
 

toynoob

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Sorry for my tardiness in providing meaningful input. But isn’t an RFID deck a form of a marked deck? Who was the genius that thought this was a great idea?
Without it you don't watch poker via tv, twitch, or YouTube. So personally I think it's fantastic idea. The problem was no security was put in place to keep cheaters out. Lack of security with feed draws in bottom feeders.
 

1A25R

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Why Mike is trying to have his 4 PLO hand read ?
- if you are able to physically see your own cards, why bother? Or is a sign to tell "hey, I can only see 2 out of 4"
- How he knows that only 2 of 4 cards are read if there is a 30 min delay between the hand played and hand broadcasted.. How he can possibly know that only 2 are visible if he does not get a real time feedback?
 

JWC

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Without it you don't watch poker via tv, twitch, or YouTube. So personally I think it's fantastic idea. The problem was no security was put in place to keep cheaters out. Lack of security with feed draws in bottom feeders.
There are other methods that have been employed. The question is are you more worried about being on TV, YouTube, etc., or having a secure game? Perhaps both are not attainable at least with RFID cards.
 

toynoob

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There are other methods that have been employed. The question is are you more worried about being on TV, YouTube, etc., or having a secure game? Perhaps both are not attainable at least with RFID cards.
How's it any different than playing blackjack with a corrupt dealer paying off his buddy more than he should? Security watches everything. Are you saying they can't secure the back room where the cheating is being relayed? Poker is what it is today bc of "TV". Stones should be liable for not securing the game just as they do every other casino game they offer. I don't understand why you have to get rid of it, to be "secure".
 

JWC

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How's it any different than playing blackjack with a corrupt dealer paying off his buddy more than he should? Security watches everything. Are you saying they can't secure the back room where the cheating is being relayed? Poker is what it is today bc of "TV". Stones should be liable for not securing the game just as they do every other casino game they offer. I don't understand why you have to get rid of it, to be "secure".
An intentional blackjack overpay has nothing to do with cards. It is an inappropriate payment of chips.

I admit that I haven’t physically inspected RFID cards and readers. However, it would seem that you open the window to having a secondary (rogue) system deployed to read the cards, or having the signals intercepted from the readers before they hit the back room.

In short, an RFID deck is by definition a marked deck, and opens the door to cheating beyond intercepting feeds in the back room.
 

WedgeRock

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And more specifically, Stones’ insurance provider (who will likely be on the hook for any penalties awarded).
I'm sure there is an intentional/criminal acts exclusion in the insurance policy. I doubt losses caused by employees being involved in cheating would be covered.

$10'000'000

I thought it read that Postle booked $60k in wins since cheating was suspected... Am I rembering that wrong?


Even assuming every penny of that $60k was the result of cheating, how does that translate to $10m in damages?! I understand how punitive, treble damages work, but how can Plaintiff's claim they suffered losses of $10m? It's a zero sum game at the poker table... Even arguing that he folded some hands that should have cost him big pots ON TOP of the ill-gotten gains, I don't get anywhere near $10m...
 
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toynoob

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An intentional blackjack overpay has nothing to do with cards. It is an inappropriate payment of chips.

I admit that I haven’t physically inspected RFID cards and readers. However, it would seem that you open the window to having a secondary (rogue) system deployed to read the cards, or having the signals intercepted from the readers before they hit the back room.

In short, an RFID deck is by definition a marked deck, and opens the door to cheating beyond intercepting feeds in the back room.
That's not what has happened in my understanding, it was relayed from another human to Mike.
 

justsomedude

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I'm sure there is an intentional/criminal acts exclusion in the insurance policy. I doubt losses caused by employees being involved in cheating would be covered.
That’s if they can prove the cheating/crime. Going for negligence will be a far easier threshold to achieve.
 

HobokenNJ

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Does anyone know why they threw the "libel" claim in there for $1000? Hardly seems worthwhile.
Does that change how much can be collected on the insurance, change where venue might be appropriate, or do something else strategic for them?
 

Outkicked

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Even if he is innocent (which 99% of everyone knows he’s not) he will never get invited to a game on a live stream ever again anyway
 

toynoob

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Even if he is innocent (which 99% of everyone knows he’s not) he will never get invited to a game on a live stream ever again anyway
Quite frankly I hope no one plays with him period. If he sits at a table in any casino I hope the table gets up and leaves. Make him leave the card scene. Fck him and his cronies for taking money and laughing in people's face about it. Disgusting POS
 

karsus

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Does anyone know why they threw the "libel" claim in there for $1000? Hardly seems worthwhile.
Does that change how much can be collected on the insurance, change where venue might be appropriate, or do something else strategic for them?
It is my understanding that the Libel claim pertains to when Stones said that Veronica's claims were completely fabricated. It also allows Veronica to be party to the lawsuit where without it, she wouldn't have any standing
 

toynoob

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It is my understanding that the Libel claim pertains to when Stones said that Veronica's claims were completely fabricated. It also allows Veronica to be party to the lawsuit where without it, she wouldn't have any standing
That's not true she was a player many times.
 

1A25R

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I thought it read that Postle booked $60k in wins since cheating was suspected... Am I rembering that wrong?
I do not really understand all in your legal system but I understand that $10'000'000 is the maximum that the 25 plaintiffs can get IF Mike AND Stones are guilty of all 9 counts laid in the suit:
  1. racketeering
  2. fraud
  3. negligent misrepresentation
  4. negligence per se
  5. unjust enrichment
  6. negligence
  7. constructive fraud
  8. fraud
  9. libel

It's like a kind of progressive bounty i guess...
 

Eloe2000

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This is civil suit, not a criminal one. So the bar for findings is lower. Also, just because you win a verdict doesn’t mean you will actually get your hands on that money. Collecting, especially from private individuals or small businesses, is a completely different ballgame.
 

Carlavatky

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Why Mike is trying to have his 4 PLO hand read ?
- if you are able to physically see your own cards, why bother? Or is a sign to tell "hey, I can only see 2 out of 4"
- How he knows that only 2 of 4 cards are read if there is a 30 min delay between the hand played and hand broadcasted.. How he can possibly know that only 2 are visible if he does not get a real time feedback?
The RFID was only reading 2 cards instead of 4 - My guess is he was trying to get the system to reread correctly as he could only see 2 of what his opponent was holding
 

toynoob

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What if the lawyer was the one who tipped off the back room guy through some homeless guy outside the casino to use Postle as a mule. Then the lawyer plays in the games and sits back and waits. He then tells Veronica months into it he has this weird feeling about Mike. She then speaks up and one by one the dominoes fall. The lawyer already has the legal stuff ready to move forward. It's like a sick game of 3d multi way chess. :sneaky:
 

HobokenNJ

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It is my understanding that the Libel claim pertains to when Stones said that Veronica's claims were completely fabricated. It also allows Veronica to be party to the lawsuit where without it, she wouldn't have any standing
Yes; it was related to Veronica. The way the complaint is drafted, I had assumed she was one of the players that had lost against Postle (the complaint, for instance, refers to Plaintiffs losing money, not a subset of them).

I'm not sure what benefit giving her standing would be. She could be a witness, etc. w/o standing.
 

HobokenNJ

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I do not really understand all in your legal system but I understand that $10'000'000 is the maximum that the 25 plaintiffs can get ...
Not exactly -- you can write whatever number you want in a lawsuit -- I don't think $10MM is what they realistically expect. You pick a number that generates headlines that avoids making you look like a fool -- and a number that's not too low to preclude relief. ($10MM sounds normal, but writing $1 trillion would seem crazy.)
 

Joe Harris

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assumed she was one of the players that had lost against Postle
Yes. In fact, she was at the table on July 18 2018 at the moment Postle is said to have first cheated.

open the window to having a secondary (rogue) system deployed to read the cards
Basically impossible. You would need equipment at pretty much every player position on the table. RFID is extremely short range because the tag (the component in the cards) is unpowered and only passively reacts to the signal from the reader/antenna. Think like a foot maximum under idea conditions, but almost always less.

having the signals intercepted from the readers before they hit the back room.
Theoretically possible, but it would require physically compromising either the table or the WiFi hotspot the table is connected with. Or hacking the encryption on the data, but good luck with that unless you're the NSA.
 

Highli99

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I thought it read that Postle booked $60k in wins since cheating was suspected
That’s his wins but the cheating also cost players who he folded to. Not sure how to quantify that.
 
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