Another PLO hand from last night at Bo Manor (1 Viewer)

kirchhausen

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Blinds are .25/.50, we are alternating orbits of NL and PLO. This PLO hand I am in HJ with $160. Relevant Villains are CO who has me covered by $2, SB with a stack of about $54, BB biggest stack at the table, UTG maybe about $180.

So the UTG pots to $1.75, I call with :as::jh::8s::5c:, CO calls, Button Folds, SB and BB both call. $8.75 in the pot.

Flop Comes :jc::ts::6s:
SB pots, BB calls, UTG Call. What should I do here, Raise or call? Some info about players:

SB is very new to PLO, and does not seem to understand it is a nut game. He is a very aggressive laggy NL player and as playing the same as if it were NL.

BB is probably the most experienced PLO player at the table. He is opening every single pot that has been limped to him, but is three betting extremely rarely.

UTG is usually a Taggy NL player. Also newer to PLO, but I think his game suits PLO much better than SB. He seems to appreciate that this is a nut game.

My image is probably on the nitty side usually, but I have been lagging it up a little more than usual tonight.

CO is a solid NL player, Tag style, but if he senses weakness he is not afraid to pounce. Not afraid to semi-bluff with his big draws. Also not afraid to squeeze.
 
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not going to claim expertise, but seems clear to me we should pot. Can't see why we'd do anything else.

I don't think we should be calling PF. We're OOP with a junk hand imo.
 

DrStrange

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I would never raise here. I think calling is best because Hero really only has one draw - the nut flush draw. Lots of runner-runner thin chances (top pair is one of those thin chances. Not Hero's main hope but it could prove handy on a good day.). Hero is getting 4-1 on his call with only CO to act. I think the implied odds from the holdem players are worth the risk the hand blows up.

DrStrange
 

Ben

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Call. With the holdem monkeys in the mix you have some implied odds on making your nut flush, and no fold equity against better hands. I don't see any value in a raise here.

Calling preflop is marginal - this hand is quite bad. I'd do it this deep, but not much shallower.
 

MrBo

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Who folds the button? That guy sounds like a nit...

Probably the guy who was continually dealt monstrosities like :2c::5h::9d::js: all night. Of course I probably would've folded :as::jh::8s::5c: pre as well. As played, just flatting on the flop but taking into consideration that one of the other three in front of us is likely blocking some of our flush outs and we have no other draws (except maybe a Jack on the river? :))
 

kirchhausen

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So I flat, co pots to $52 and SB calls for just less (51 I think). Two folds and it is to me. Call, raise, or fold?
 
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detroitdad

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I might fold at this point. I think if you're going to call, then you might as well pot it. Maybe clean it up a bit. The only thing you have right now is a flush draw.
 

Ben

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Tough one - if you assume one has a set and the other has a wrap+FD it's a fold, but I'm not sure that even a set goes bananas like that on this flop. I feel like we could be up against two big draws in which case our made hand (TPTK) puts us into positive equity territory, particularly for the side pot. I dunno. Pull out a coin - heads = jam, tails = fold.
 

10centguitar

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Just call,

Hero shouldnt have called the PF raise with that hand imo,

but now that you are on the flop, with the nut flush draw and a weak backdoor str8 draw that couldnt be good if it hit, the best you can do is hope for a spade or a jack that scares everyone into checking
 
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kirchhausen

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So I called the raise to $52, knowing villain is going to shove almost any board I check to him. There is now about $180 in the pot, I have $96 behind and villain has me (barely) covered.

Turn is the :kd:. I check, villain shoves. So board is :jc::ts::6s::kd:. I've picked up a few more outs with the butterball.

Anyone here fold, or all you all snap calling?
 

grandgnu

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Ok, you picked up a few more outs with the non-spade Queens, but you only have one card to come, which means your equity has dropped considerably. And don't forget board-pairing spades may not be good here. I fold.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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mmm butterball I think you should snap. Gnu you're forgetting about hidden turkey equity. Are there mashed potatos and gravy involved? Stuffing? Seems like a no-brainer.
 

DrStrange

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I'd think the call is negative EV before considering bluffing chances.

7 clean flush outs, 2 tainted (but no RIO issues because you are all in), 3 non-spade queens for a potential chop. Let's call that 10 outs net. 10/44=23%

$96 to win $372 = 26%

Net EV is -$10 or -20 bb.

The villain's flop play implies a set or wrap, all of which are likely good given the turn. So Hero needs to catch villain on some sort of total air bluff or something like AAxx hand for this call to have any hope. It seems doubtful that a pair of jacks, ace kicker wins the showdown, Hero is going to have to hit something even to catch a bluff.

This happens a lot in PLO. We make dubious calls, just barely -EV each round and end up with sizable losses.

I think this is a <sigh> fold.

DrStrange
 

jbutler

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I think this is a <sigh> fold.

agree with this. i probably would have spew-potted the flop and gotten it in then, so i have no authority telling anyone to fold, but still.

also, apologies for the derail, but seeing this:

Blinds are .25/.50...

So the UTG pots to $1.75...

i just thought i would throw out there that the opening pot-sized raise here with no limpers is often going to be $2 if going by the rules the majority of casinos use to determine opening raises in PLO games. for calculation of the size of the pot, they will round the small blind up to the big blind (even more frequently rooms will just use equal-blind or single blind structures for PLO games: $2/2 at MD Live, $5/5 at Borgata, $5/0 at Parx).

of course in Mr. Bo's game he's free to use whatever rule he prefers, but particularly in games with fractional blinds, it's always struck me as simpler and more efficient to go ahead and round up rather than having to calculate the pot using quarters.
 

DrStrange

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AMEN Brother, I hate playing pot limit where people can bet quarters. My game rules bar that, you have to bet in round dollars.

As for fear of math - - Fear??? you Sir are misguided I do not fear the maths, I am Lazy and don't want to do them all night long.

It is hard to count the pot on my fingers with quarter chips in play, though I have about the right number of knuckles to do it. But then, what happens when I run out of fingers and toes???

Nope, better to be lazy and stick to whole dollars.

DrStrange
 

Ben

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It's a fold. Offsuit K was the worst turn card possible. There's now a 0% chance we're ahead of the guy jamming.
 

MrBo

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of course in Mr. Bo's game he's free to use whatever rule he prefers

Ah that does make sense and probably speeds things up a little. I'll keep that in mind next time Chippy can't make it and the rest of us nits can freely PLO again :)
 
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