9Ts in early possition

DrStrange

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Playing 1-2 live, eight handed. It is about 90 minutes into the session. I'll put in more information than normal since my game is going to be new to some folks here. This is a bi-monthly home game. It has been running for about seven years. We live in the middle of no where Texas - the player pool is small. Most of the villains have hundreds or thousands of hours of table time with each other. Villain reads are vital to the hand analysis, as they should be for all home game threads. The table tonight is ultra loose and a little more aggressive than "normal". This game allows rebuys to match the big stack at the table. On the right night there will be $10,000+ in play at the end of the night, tonight we have ~$2,500 in play at the 90 minute mark. Big pots fought over one pair hands are common. Top pair/top kicker is nearly the nut in the minds of most of the villains here tonight.

Cast of characters: (less details now, more when the field thins.)

In the SB is the prototype calling station playing $225.

In the BB is a loose, semi passive / fit fold guy who is a modest winner over the years. He has $250

UTG is a hyper loose LAGtard with $150. Spews money like crazy, though he wins more pots than almost any one at the table.

Hero is UTG+1 with $250. Hero is the tightest player at the table by a wide margin. Everyone know this but will play vs Hero's raises anyway because Hero will play big pots if they get lucky and hit. It is notable that Hero has been able to get a few bluffs in the last six months. There was a day early on when hero was getting called down for big bets and seeing bottom pair take the pot. These days sometimes people will fold top pair/weak kicker (and proudly show the "good" laydown) - but not always.

MP is a competent LAG playing $500, quite loose by most standards. He plays preflop hands backwards - rarely raising with big pairs but might raise with lesser pairs or connecting / suited cards.

MP2 is the Alpha Male playing $400. This guy looks at poker as a form of male dominance and HE IS the Alpha Male. A pure blooded LAGtard, he is one of the biggest losers in the game but thinks he is a long run winner.

CO is newish for this game. Older lawyer, big bets with lots of air but not really insane. I can't tell if he will be a winner but I think not. He has $400.

Button is a tricky trappy calling station. He has $250 in his stack.

The hand:

Normal raises are $7 to $15, more often $10 or $12 for now. Expect multiple callers - not unthinkable to have eight way action with a $12 raise.

UTG limps for $2

Hero opens his hand and sees Ts 9s. What should Hero do? (Hint, hero didn't fold but maybe he should have.) Fold, limp or raise? If raising how much and why? (second hint, Hero isn't going to thin down the field with a normal raise and they aren't going to often fold to a post flop c-bet.) As many of you know, Hero doesn't approve of speculative hands out of position especially without deep stack.

Hero has private rules about such hands to keep himself out of trouble -=- DrStrange
 

Ben

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OOP eight-handed and only 120 bb deep, with above-average LAGtard quotient? I'm just dumping it. Six-handed or if the cast were a bit more passive tonight, it might be a different story.
 

grandgnu

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UTG is a hyper loose LAGTARD

UTG limps for $2?

DOES NOT COMPUTE!

I like your hand from later position in an unraised or at least a multi-way pot. UTG could be going for the limp-raise here, and someone left to act after you is likely to raise if you limp. I lean towards a fold here.

IF you're going to play it I'm assuming you're thinking you can raise and get multi-way action with a bunch of callers, thus making your hand that can "flop big" worth it given the potential action?
 

DrStrange

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*** well we knew Hero was not folding ***

Hero limps. MP limps. The Alpha Male raises to $8 (he has a bet sizing tell that is moderately reliable, smaller raises tend to be speculative hands rather than top 5% hands)

Button folds, SB(calling station) calls, BB folds, UTG (LAGtard) calls bringing the action back to Hero.

Hero owes $6 to call. The pot is $30. MP yet to act. Fold, call or raise? If raising how much and why?

The first step towards Hell is often small and easy -=- DrStrange
 

grandgnu

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Call, we got the multi-way pot we want with a hand like this, let's see a flop.
 

detroitdad

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*** well we knew Hero was not folding ***

Hero limps. MP limps. The Alpha Male raises to $8 (he has a bet sizing tell that is moderately reliable, smaller raises tend to be speculative hands rather than top 5% hands)

Button folds, SB(calling station) calls, BB folds, UTG (LAGtard) calls bringing the action back to Hero.

Hero owes $6 to call. The pot is $30. MP yet to act. Fold, call or raise? If raising how much and why?

The first step towards Hell is often small and easy -=- DrStrange
If you don't suspect the MP of attempting a steal then I probably just call. I don't think I'm raising here.
 

JoseRijo

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If I folded here (first or second time around) during a MA/NH game, I would be laughed straight out of Bergs' house.
 
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Squeeze looks mighty tempting here. I figure we limp-raise this bunch not irregularly and usually have a big pair when we do. Make it $50 & call a shove.
 

DrStrange

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*** on to the flop ***

Hero calls as does MP. Five to see a flop, $42 in the pot.

More villain notes:

SB is the prototype calling station playing $225. He is behind, so he will be stickier and less aggressive (and that is saying a lot). We can assume he didn't have KK or AA from the preflop but nothing more. He literally is playing any other hand.

UTG is a hyper loose LAGtard with $150. Spews money like crazy, though he wins more pots than almost any one at the table. He will fire a flop bet with any hope - bottom pair, gut shot maybe two over cards. As noted, this guy wins a lot of $25 pots and loses $400 pots. He thinks he can do math but he is wrong. Slightly behind for the session

MP is a competent LAG playing $500, quite loose by most standards. He plays preflop hands backwards - rarely raising with big pairs but might raise with lesser pairs or connecting / suited cards. He over values draws and really over values runner-runner draws. Commonly will call a flop be holding three to a flush or three to a straight and hopes to catch a draw. He bets big and makes decisions hard because his range is all over the map. He is ahead for the session

The Alpha Male playing $400. This guy looks at poker as a form of male dominance and HE IS the Alpha Male. A pure blooded LAGtard, he is one of the biggest losers in the game but thinks he is a long run winner. He has a huge c-bet rate in this type of situation. If we all check I expect a bet 80% of the time. Alpha is breakeven for the night - this matters a lot because he looks at won chips differently than bought chips. He will be a little less risk prone due to this. Alpha REALLY can't do math but he is oh so certain that he can (plus he loves implied odds).

Flop is: :9d::7c::6s:

SB checks, UTG checks. Hero holds :9s::ts: Now what? check or bet, if betting how much and why? For what it is worth, no one is showing tells about their plans (not that those are very reliable.)

DrStrange
 

Chippy McChiperson

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*** on to the flop ***

Hero calls as does MP. Five to see a flop, $42 in the pot.

More villain notes:

SB is the prototype calling station playing $225. He is behind, so he will be stickier and less aggressive (and that is saying a lot). We can assume he didn't have KK or AA from the preflop but nothing more. He literally is playing any other hand.

UTG is a hyper loose LAGtard with $150. Spews money like crazy, though he wins more pots than almost any one at the table. He will fire a flop bet with any hope - bottom pair, gut shot maybe two over cards. As noted, this guy wins a lot of $25 pots and loses $400 pots. He thinks he can do math but he is wrong. Slightly behind for the session

MP is a competent LAG playing $500, quite loose by most standards. He plays preflop hands backwards - rarely raising with big pairs but might raise with lesser pairs or connecting / suited cards. He over values draws and really over values runner-runner draws. Commonly will call a flop be holding three to a flush or three to a straight and hopes to catch a draw. He bets big and makes decisions hard because his range is all over the map. He is ahead for the session

The Alpha Male playing $400. This guy looks at poker as a form of male dominance and HE IS the Alpha Male. A pure blooded LAGtard, he is one of the biggest losers in the game but thinks he is a long run winner. He has a huge c-bet rate in this type of situation. If we all check I expect a bet 80% of the time. Alpha is breakeven for the night - this matters a lot because he looks at won chips differently than bought chips. He will be a little less risk prone due to this. Alpha REALLY can't do math but he is oh so certain that he can (plus he loves implied odds).

Flop is: :9d::7c::6s:

SB checks, UTG checks. Hero holds :9s::ts: Now what? check or bet, if betting how much and why? For what it is worth, no one is showing tells about their plans (not that those are very reliable.)

DrStrange
$30 all day.
 

grandgnu

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I'd go for the check-raise against Alpha Male here, since it's likely he's going to bet.
 

Ben

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Check-call all day spot (or in this case, check and see what develops.) We have good relative position here, and can't call a (very likely) raise if we bet. It's still entirely likely to be bet and raised before it gets back to us, in which case we get out for free.
 

DrStrange

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*** onward ***

Hero checks, MP checks, Alpha male bets $20, calling station in SB calls, UTG folds. Action on Hero - Hero owes $20 to call, pot is $82 at the moment, effective stacks ~$200. Does Hero fold, call or raise? If raising, how much and why?

DrStrange
 

grandgnu

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*** onward ***

Hero checks, MP checks, Alpha male bets $20, calling station in SB calls, UTG folds. Action on Hero - Hero owes $20 to call, pot is $82 at the moment, effective stacks ~$200. Does Hero fold, call or raise? If raising, how much and why?

DrStrange
Hmmmmm, I don't think we can raise without being pot committed here, so might as well check-raise shove in this spot. We knew Alpha was going to c-bet, and his c-bet was around half the pot despite the potential scare cards that could hit the turn if he holds a premium hand. I just don't buy that Alpha is overly strong here and expect to be ahead of him the majority of the time.

The calling station is of some concern, since it's possible they could be in there with A9 or something and in calling mode. But there's a whole host of other holdings they could have that we're ahead of. Bottom line for me is I expect we're ahead of both villians the majority of the time here and really don't want to have some bad card come on the turn without making them pay to get there.
 

Ben

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I call and see the turn. Probably bet/fold $50 on a brick like a 3, check-fold bad cards and check-jam something good like a 9 or 8.
 

fish72s

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To be honest, I probably would have played this hand the same way.
Preflop my mind says fold but T9s is just so pretty. I'd rationalize by saying I will fold to any raise.
But then $6 is so cheap and T9s is so sexy.
On the flop I think $20 is an easy call. The turn will change everything.

This all sounds very familiar.
FWIW, a week after the recent T8s thread, I still limp called in MP with 89s, made a flush and lost my first buyin. I told myself not to do that. Man I was steaming:)
 

Zippity

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This really depends on how you view Alpha male. If he has a history of calling everything and betting the house on a pair of crappy cards, then you have to consider the risk of going all in against him. My biggest worry in scenarios like this is that aggressive players can hide monster hands based on their history of playing cards.

At this point, considering Alpha Male has a moderately reliable bet size tell, and that he raised pre-flop based on speculation, the worse case scenarios are that he could have had small pockets that hit the board for trips, he could have hit a two pair on small suited connectors, or he could have a made straight. All of which you can't tell based on his bet that, as his playing history dictates, are standard for him regardless of hand strength.

The next worse case scenario is that he could be playing for a draw with a pair.

In this scenario since both Alpha Males' bets and Calling stations calls render no information, I would most likely raise since that would represent a made pair or a straight and provide information as to the strength of Alpha Male's hand as well as Calling Station.
 

DrStrange

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*** On to the turn ***

Hero decides to call $20. MP folds. Three players to see the turn, $102 in the pot.

Turn: < :9d::7c::6s: > :ks:

SB (calling station) checks. Action on hero, check or bet? If betting how much and why? Hero has $222 in his stack, Alpha Male covers and SB has $197.

DrStrange
 
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grandgnu

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*** On to the turn ***

Hero decides to call $20. MP folds. Three players to see the turn, $102 in the pot.

Turn: < :9d::7c::6s: > :ks:

SB (calling station) checks. Action on hero, check or bet? If betting how much and why? Hero has $222 in his stack, Alpha Male covers and SB has $197.

DrStrange
Check, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition (or runner-runner flush)
 

Ben

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Yup. Check-jamborooski. Better hands might fold. Worse draws might call. At worst you'll get max value out of a bad hand that won't put money in on the river unless it sucks out somehow.
 

fish72s

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Tricky spot. If you think you don't have the best hand and villains aren't going to fold you can consider check-calling and leaving the option of a river fold.
That's very conservative but if you are beat, you're beat. (Not just saying that because you have hinted you will lose this hand.)

But you may have the best hand and if not then you still (usually) have alot of equity. This is a good spot for a strong semi-bluff.
A check-raise is stronger but I don't think villains are going to bet many hands on the turn that won't call a check-raise.
I would lead out for $80. This should fold mid pairs, a nine, straight draws and other flush draws and it may freeze a king. We have to call a shove but don't like it.
If we whiff the river we can check and re-evaluate. Fold if convinced we are beat or maybe catch a bluff.
 

DrStrange

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*** The end ***

Hero decides to go for the check raise. Hero checks. Alpha Male bets $50. SB folds. Hero jams ( $202 pot, Hero's raise is $172 ) Alpha tanks....talks....tanks and then calls.

The river: < :9d::7c::6s: > :ks: :5c:

Hero holds :9s::ts:
Alpha shows :9h::qc:

Hero reloads -=- DrStrange
 

DrStrange

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This is why this game is so profitable. Hero just needs patience because he will get paid off when he makes a hand. And paid quite well - $600 pot won with 2nd pair good kicker.

Bluffing is overrated, but it is good for your table image -=- DrStrange
 
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