Tourney 5 hour 100 player schedule (1 Viewer)

[T_Chan]

I've been running fundraiser tournaments for a few years now, having tweaked my blinds schedule as I go I've finally got a structure that works for 5 hours for 60+ players. However, the schedule is very, very aggressive towards the end. I need this schedule to be done in 5 hours, typically we start at 7pm and the customers have the rental hall until 1am, so the game must finish by midnight to allow for the game to run a bit late if necessary plus cleanup time. Plus we usually start late, closer to 7:15 or even 7:30.

This is the schedule I've used for the last year which as mentioned, works but I get lots of complaints towards the end. I let everyone know that we have a time limit and most are understanding about the situation, but not all.

Blind Structure:
$5000 starting stack
Time SB BB
7pm
15 25 50
15 50 100
15 75 150
15 100 200

8pm
15 150 300
15 200 400
15 300 600
15 400 800

9pm
20 Break - chip up 25's -- End of rebuys - Add ons

15 600 1,200
15 800 1,600
15 1,200 2,400

10pm(ish)
15 1,600 3,200
15 2,500 5,000
15 5,000 10,000

Blinds reduce to 10 minutes. 11pm ish at this point.
10 10,000 20,000
10 25,000 50,000 (big jump here)
10 50,000 100,000
10 100,000 200,000
Blinds double every 10 minutes.

I do not want to introduce antes because these are large self dealt tournaments. Also keep in mind that these are not all regular poker players, there can be some very weak play towards the end where it's just a fold-a-thon, dragging the game even longer.

These games typically have lots of rebuys and add ons, so it's not abnormal to have over 1M in chips in play.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ovo]

wish I lived near you

 

[Jambine]

Plus we usually start late, closer to 7:15 or even 7:30.

You could offer some bonus chips for starting on time...

 

[DJ Mack]

You could offer some bonus chips for starting on time...

I suspect the problem is more the organizers than the participants, although with 100 players no doubt participants are sauntering in late too. I think it's a law - every charity poker night has to go like this: Start time comes and Father is nowhere to be found to give the blessing. The finally track him down in the kitchen and he does his bit. But before things can get going every person associated with the cause had to say a few words and remind everyone why public speaking is not their thing. Plus there's always some in charge lady who doesn't want to start until Al or Sue or Dave or so and so's brother in law makes it in.

God help us all if they're also running a silent auction on the sideboard. Since Tony's doing these as a business he's pretty much at the customer's mercy on starting.

 

[BeesKnees]

How long is the rebuy period? Also you mentioned add-ons, what’s the criteria for those?

 

[sharpcr]

so basically unlimited rebuys for the first 2 hours?

 

[T_Chan]

Yes, unlimited rebuys for the first 2 hours. It's a T5k tourney, players get $5k for rebuys and $10k for add ons which are at the break. Last night we had 104 players with 1.45M chips on the table.

Players can rebuy as many times as they want, add ons are 1 per player but they must have chips left. They can rebuy and add on at the break.

 

[T_Chan]

I suspect the problem is more the organizers than the participants, although with 100 players no doubt participants are sauntering in late too. I think it's a law - every charity poker night has to go like this: Start time comes and Father is nowhere to be found to give the blessing. The finally track him down in the kitchen and he does his bit. But before things can get going every person associated with the cause had to say a few words and remind everyone why public speaking is not their thing. Plus there's always some in charge lady who doesn't want to start until Al or Sue or Dave or so and so's brother in law makes it in.

God help us all if they're also running a silent auction on the sideboard. Since Tony's doing these as a business he's pretty much at the customer's mercy on starting.

Yes there's a silent auction as well 50% of the time. Sometimes they also serve food, so doors open at 6, food is served and poker starts at 7. Sometimes it works in my favor since people arrive mostly on time to eat, then we can get people seated at 6:45 and actually start on time. Other times, we try to get people seated around 6:45 but can't get settled in until well past 7. Or people come late, close to 7 and then want to eat before they play.

 

[DJ Mack]

Sometimes they also serve food, so doors open at 6, food is served and poker starts at 7. Sometimes it works in my favor since people arrive mostly on time to eat, then we can get people seated at 6:45 and actually start on time. Other times, we try to get people seated around 6:45 but can't get settled in until well past 7. Or people come late, close to 7 and then want to eat before they play.

In a case like that you might be able to pull off an on time bonus but the logistics of distributing it to 100 people would be a challenge. I can imagine a lot of "hey, he was here, you missed him" blah blah arguments. You can't just give it to everyone who checks in by a certain time because what if they're still fiddle farting around at the buffet come 7?

I just don't think you'll come up with the perfect one size fits all blinds schedule when you potentially have 10% less time and that many chips in play. Can you adjust your schedule on the fly? You could have two or three standard schedules and lock one in as the cards start to fly. Keep the first few hours the same but handle the last 60-90 minutes differently based on the start time.

 

[BeesKnees]

Your current blind structure is smooth and then goes haywire at the end. I would suggest keeping it smooth until the rebuy/addon period is over, and then make the increases even out.

Something like this

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200

150/300
200/400
250/500
300/600

*rebuy addon over*

500/1000
800/1600
1200/2400
2000/4000

3000/6000
5000/10000
8000/16000
12000/24000

20000/40000
30000/60000
50000/100000
80000/160000

 

[T_Chan]

I like your structure better, though I do need to ramp them up a bit more towards the end. I have to take into account the break which is usually 15-20 minutes. I also would like to keep the 250/500 level in there, but for the sake of the fundraisers I omit this level. Players tend to rebuy the most during the 400/800 level just before the break.

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200

150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800

*rebuy addon over* -- Ideally this is at 9pm, however more often it's close to 9:15-9:30.
600/1200
800/1600
1200/2400

2000/4000
3000/6000
5000/10000
8000/16000

12000/24000 After this level, it's pretty much GTFO time.
25000/50000
50000/100000
100000/200000

 

[Mojo1312]

You can add efficiencies to the structure and player incentives to save time. I would increase the starting stacks to 10000 with a 10000 add-on. This change would be a great improvement and it would not prolong the tournament significantly. (Less than 15 minutes.)

You also need a hard start and a hard stop time. Sound a bell at 5 minutes to 7 for players to take their seats. Players in their seats at 7 will receive 2K bonus chips. (Have TD assistants make their rounds with a bucket of T1000 chips.) Game starts at 7:05 sharp. This allows dealers to determine which seat has the button and gives players time to get settled.

Blind Structure:

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
500/1000
(Break) Race off T25's and T100's.
Game recommences at 9:20 or 9:25
500/1500
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
5000/10000*
(Break for final table.*)
Game should recommence sometime around 11:00.
Race off T500's & T1000's
5000/15000*
10K/20K 12 minute levels till completion
15/30K
20K/40K
30K/60K
50K/100K

Hard stop at 12:30.
Forced equity chop for remaining players.
(Unlikely this step will be necessary, since 2M chips is only 20BB's.)

The blinds are steeper in the middle rounds, but the extra 5K and the 2K player bonus at the outset more than evens out the ratio of blinds to chips. The above structure also allows for deeper play during the first and final two hours.

 

[T_Chan]

I never thought about doing a hard stop and force chop, that's a really good idea, thank you. I'll throw this idea to the organizers and see what they think about it.

A hard start time is really difficult with 60+ players. With 20+ empty seats it's just a gong show trying to start, seat new people, open up new tables, break tables, etc. I usually offer on time bonuses to players in my own tournaments, but we're a close group and we're used to the rules. Fundraisers are a different animal. I'll give it a try though to see if it'll help.

T10k sounds like a good idea but I don't have enough chips for that. Also while true that a T10k gives deeper play at the start, I, and the organizers, don't want that. We want shallow stacks where people are more likely to bust and rebuy for the sake of the fundraiser. Players still get 100BB's to start the game with a modest blind pace for the first 2 hours.

Thanks very much for the feedback so far everyone, keep it coming.

 

[T_Chan]

So I'm thinking of this:
15 minute blinds

25 50
50 100
75 150
100 200
150 300
200 400
300 600
400 800
Break - chip up 25's -- End of rebuys - Add ons (9-9:15)
600 1,200
800 1,600
1,200 2,400
1,600 3,200
2,400 4,800
4,000 8,000
6,000 12,000
10,000 20,000 (should be around the 11pm mark)
16,000 32,000
25,000 50,000
50,000 100,000
100,000 200,000

Last 3 - 4 levels are 10 minutes each. At the end of 100k/200k force chop based on chip stacks, if we still have some time left for the banquet hall then probably let it play out.

 

[sharpcr]

Yes, unlimited rebuys for the first 2 hours. It's a T5k tourney, players get $5k for rebuys and $10k for add ons which are at the break. Last night we had 104 players with 1.45M chips on the table.

Players can rebuy as many times as they want, add ons are 1 per player but they must have chips left. They can rebuy and add on at the break.

Are you hard set on the starting stacks/add-ons? IMHO your main issue is too many chips in play vs time constraints plus generous blind structure for the first two hours coupled with very generous add-on at the end of first two hours which is why you must up the blinds after the break extremely quickly. Have you ever thought about starting with T3k with a T2k add-on option for the beginning of the tourney and with rebuys being same T3k with 2k add on option? With this you would have less chips in play but still T5k starting stacks(for people who add on anyway and most would) and can have a much smoother blind structure after the break.

 

[sharpcr]

I know starting with only T3k with T2k add-on may sound crazy but take this into account and here me out. Even with T3k starting stacks players still get a good hour of play before blinds are at 300(10bb’s and typical shove time). If everyone added on with 100 people buying in you have T500k chips in play. Even if everyone rebuys and adds-on once you would have T1m in play. Take that amount divided by 2(last two players in the tourney) you have T500k. Then divide that by 10(being 10 big blinds and usually when the tourney would end because of forced shoving) would be T50k meaning the tourney would typically end at or before the big blind is 50,000.



My blind structure opinion: 15 minutes lvs for the first 4 hours.
sb bb
25 50 7pm start
50 100
75 150
100 200
150 300
200 400
300 600
400 800
Break - chip up 25’s - end of rebuys/add-ons
600 1,200 9:20 at the start of this lvl.
800 1,600
1,000 2,000
1500 3000
2,000 4000
3000 6,000
4,000 8,000
6,000 12,000 11:20 at the end of this lvl.
10 minute levels after this.
8,000 16,000
10,000 20,000
15,000 30,000
20,000 40,000 12:00 at the end of this lvl. That would be right at 5 hours here and I doubt it would go past here. If it is still going you can talk about the forced split based on chip stacks. As you can see the last 8 lvls are much more reasonable. In the structure you just mentioned above there is an enormous jump from 32,000 to 200,000(more than %600) in just 30 minutes. Just stuff to think about. I’m no expert just trying to help.

 

[BeesKnees]

Are you hard set on the starting stacks/add-ons? IMHO your main issue is too many chips in play vs time constraints plus generous blind structure for the first two hours coupled with very generous add-on at the end of first two hours which is why you must up the blinds after the break extremely quickly. Have you ever thought about starting with T3k with a T2k add-on option for the beginning of the tourney and with rebuys being same T3k with 2k add on option? With this you would have less chips in play but still T5k starting stacks(for people who add on anyway and most would) and can have a much smoother blind structure after the break.

When building the blind structure for this tournament, you need to consider the reason WHY this tournament is happening. The typical drivers don’t apply here, the first priority is to raise funds. The structure needs to be generous for the rebuy period so that it will entice rebuys, the add-on needs to be large to make it a no-brainer for everyone.

I think the goal here is to create an atmosphere that strongly promotes rebuys and add-ons before the cut off but then still gets it over with within the allotted timeframe (hence the aggressive increases at lvl9+).

To give people 3k or even 5k starting stacks greatly reduces the chance of rebuys after level 3-4. A 2k add-on is essentially nothing with an 800 big blind.

 

[sharpcr]

When building the blind structure for this tournament, you need to consider the reason WHY this tournament is happening. The typical drivers don’t apply here, the first priority is to raise funds. The structure needs to be generous for the rebuy period so that it will entice rebuys, the add-on needs to be large to make it a no-brainer for everyone.

I think the goal here is to create an atmosphere that strongly promotes rebuys and add-ons before the cut off but then still gets it over with within the allotted timeframe (hence the aggressive increases at lvl9+).

To give people 3k or even 5k starting stacks greatly reduces the chance of rebuys after level 3-4. A 2k add-on is essentially nothing with an 800 big blind.

It sounded to me, and correct me if I’m wrong, that T_Chan’s add-on wasn’t until the break anyway. Only one add-on and you must have chips left.

 

[BeesKnees]

It sounded to me, and correct me if I’m wrong, that T_Chan’s add-on wasn’t until the break anyway. Only one add-on and you must have chips left.

Sorry I’m about 7 beers and a very generous whisky deep.

Yes that’s what I gathered too, so I was incorrect saying that the add-on is “essentially nothing with an 800 [pre add-on] big blind”. What I should have said is that a 2k add on IS nothing with a 1200 (post add-on) big blind.

 

[sharpcr]

Sorry I’m about 7 beers and a very generous whisky deep.

Yes that’s what I gathered too, so I was incorrect saying that the add-on is “essentially nothing with an 800 [pre add-on] big blind”. What I should have said is that a 2k add on IS nothing with a 1200 (post add-on) big blind.

Haha nice! It’s all good. One thing also to consider, being a fundraiser and trying to promote rebuys and add-ons as you say, is that in the one I suggested all participants get the option to add-on in the beginning(and most will) plus adding on with a rebuy vs only the participants left in the tourney getting one add-on option at the break. I play in a fundraisor for youth home every year that has around 100 participants with the same starting stack and add on size I suggested is the main reason I suggested it. It works fairly well.

 

[T_Chan]

Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't considered an add on at the start of the tournament, but IMO I'm not a fan of that as it sets players at different stacks at the start of the game, and a considerable difference at 3k and 5k. If almost everyone is going to add on anyways, then I have the same problem of too many chips in play and might as well just start everyone at $5k. It might make a difference though depending on the cost. What's the dollar amount for the buy in and rebuy that you've done?

Typically for the fundraisers, the buy in is $50 or $60, we offer the rebuys at 50% of the original buy in cost, and the add ons for the same amount as the rebuys. I used to offer $5k add ons, but didn't get a lot of buyers, once I bumped it up to $10k, the majority of players would add on. I doubt anyone would pay any dollar amount for a $2k add on when the blinds are at either $500/1000 or $600/1200. Would you do a $50 buy in, and then a $25 add on at the start of the game? Or something like $40 buy in and $10 add on to make it $50 total?

 

[sharpcr]

Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't considered an add on at the start of the tournament, but IMO I'm not a fan of that as it sets players at different stacks at the start of the game, and a considerable difference at 3k and 5k. If almost everyone is going to add on anyways, then I have the same problem of too many chips in play and might as well just start everyone at $5k. It might make a difference though depending on the cost. What's the dollar amount for the buy in and rebuy that you've done?

Typically for the fundraisers, the buy in is $50 or $60, we offer the rebuys at 50% of the original buy in cost, and the add ons for the same amount as the rebuys. I used to offer $5k add ons, but didn't get a lot of buyers, once I bumped it up to $10k, the majority of players would add on. I doubt anyone would pay any dollar amount for a $2k add on when the blinds are at either $500/1000 or $600/1200. Would you do a $50 buy in, and then a $25 add on at the start of the game? Or something like $40 buy in and $10 add on to make it $50 total?

$50 if you preregistered online($55 at the door) and $25 for the pre-tournament add-on. The T10k add-on you’re offering is most likely the culprit for too many chips in play, not the origional T5k stacks plus rebuys.

 

[Mojo1312]

You may be surprised by how quickly players will find their seats for an extra 2K chips. I usually had to deal with one or two stragglers when I hosted my 200BB tournament. This problem disappeared after I gave players an extra 10BB's for showing up on time. No one wanted to be at a disadvantage, however small.

Addressing the seating problem a bit further, I played in a 6 table fundraiser tournament run by a fire station. The game was always underway within five minutes of the scheduled starting time. Every group is different, but I also think it has to do with making your expectations clear.

Either blind structure will work. Players receive 1.66 fewer BB's with their add-on under my structure and they will have 10% less chips relative to the big blinds in levels 9 thru 12. On the upside, you are able to eliminate the T100's sooner by replacing the 600/1200, 1200/2400, 1600/3200 and 2400/4800 levels with the simpler 500/1000, 1000/2000, 1500/3000, 2000/4000 and 3000/6000 levels. Also, the blinds are not as aggressive at the end. You can race off the T500's and T1000's when the game breaks for the final table.

There will be less than 30BB's remaining at the 30K/60K level, and less than 20BB's once you hit the 50K/100K levels.

I would do a proportional chop to bring the tournament to a conclusion once time has expired.

 

[T_Chan]

You may be surprised by how quickly players will find their seats for an extra 2K chips. I usually had to deal with one or two stragglers when I hosted my 200BB tournament. This problem disappeared after I gave players an extra 10BB's for showing up on time. No one wanted to be at a disadvantage, however small.

I'll give it a try, thanks for the suggestion. I also like the blind schedule that goes from 1k/2k to 1.5k/3k to eliminate the 100's sooner. Also makes the next blind levels more predictable.

All great info, thank you everyone.

 

[sharpcr]

Glad to help! Let us know how it goes with an update afterwards. That’s very impressive running tourneys for 100 people.

 

[andy699669]

Uh-oh, better add 25/75 between 25/50 and 50/100 on that schedule, as halving the stacks at early level is a huge spike. And what's the point of reducing the blinds level late game to 10 minutes? Don't you should have all the blind levels sans the breaks to be consistent?