Tourney Tournament Structure t100 (150BB) (4 Viewers)

[Baseten333]

Ok. I apologize in advance. I know there are a million threads already out there. I'm trying to create a structure for a home game. I have the chips for 20 players (2 tables.) I want the tournament to end in 4.5 hours max.

T100 based Set
Starting stacks at 30,000. (150BB)
I have a 10% On-time bonus at 3,000 chips.

I may be incorrect but a 200 BB tournament has a 25% rebuy rate with 100BB being 50%. Estimating roughly 30% rebuy.
Those rebuys are just the 30,000 chips

20 Players (2 tables)
33,000 x 20 = 660,000
30,000 x 6 = 180,000
840,000 / 20BB = 42,000 (So end level should be roughly 10000 / 20000 (20000)

10 players ( 1 table)
33,000 x 10 = 330,000
30,000 x 3 = 90,000
420,000 / 20BB = 21,000

15 Min levels
1. 100 / 200
2. 100 / 200 (200)
3. 200 / 300 (300)
4. 200 / 400 (400)
5. 300 / 600 (600)
6. 400 / 800 (800)
BREAK - END REBUYS (10 min)
7. 500 / 1000 (1000)
8. 600 / 1200 (1200)
9. 800 / 1600 (1600)
10. 1000 / 2000 (2000)
11. 1200 / 2400 (2400)
12. 1500 / 3000 (3000)
BREAK - Remove t100 and t500 (10 min)
13. 2000 / 4000 (4000)
14. 3000 / 6000 (6000)
15. 4000 / 8000 (8000)
16. 6000 / 12000 (12000) Estimated End of Tournament for 10 Players
17. 8000 / 16000 (16000)
BREAK - Remove T1000
18. 10000 / 20000 (20000) Estimated End of Tournament 20 Players
19. 15000 / 30000 (30000)
20. 20000 / 40000 (40000)

So uh, how'd I do.
Thoughts I have... I do limit rebuys to only 1. I want it to be a back up where everyone gets a chance to play for that 1.5-2hrs. I don't want someone to go home in 20 minutes. But I also don't want an unlimited rebuy shove fest. Ideally, Id like to maybe adjust the first levels to not have the BBA or maybe start it after the first break. I want it to be slow at first and then ramp up to hit the time target. I don't know why, but I'm, scared of a tournament taking forever and people feeling like it is too slow. Any recommendations?

 

[Prenders17]

Ok. I apologize in advance. I know there are a million threads already out there. I'm trying to create a structure for a home game. I have the chips for 20 players (2 tables.) I want the tournament to end in 4.5 hours max.

T100 based Set
Starting stacks at 30,000. (150BB)
I have a 10% On-time bonus at 3,000 chips.

I may be incorrect but a 200 BB tournament has a 25% rebuy rate with 100BB being 50%. Estimating roughly 30% rebuy.
Those rebuys are just the 30,000 chips

20 Players (2 tables)
33,000 x 20 = 660,000
30,000 x 6 = 180,000
840,000 / 20BB = 42,000 (So end level should be roughly 10000 / 20000 (20000)

10 players ( 1 table)
33,000 x 10 = 330,000
30,000 x 3 = 90,000
420,000 / 20BB = 21,000

15 Min levels
1. 100 / 200
2. 100 / 200 (200)
3. 200 / 300 (300)
4. 200 / 400 (400)
5. 300 / 600 (600)
6. 400 / 800 (800)
BREAK - END REBUYS (10 min)
7. 500 / 1000 (1000)
8. 600 / 1200 (1200)
9. 800 / 1600 (1600)
10. 1000 / 2000 (2000)
11. 1200 / 2400 (2400)
12. 1500 / 3000 (3000)
BREAK - Remove t100 and t500 (10 min)
13. 2000 / 4000 (4000)
14. 3000 / 6000 (6000)
15. 4000 / 8000 (8000)
16. 6000 / 12000 (12000) Estimated End of Tournament for 10 Players
17. 8000 / 16000 (16000)
BREAK - Remove T1000
18. 10000 / 20000 (20000) Estimated End of Tournament 20 Players
19. 15000 / 30000 (30000)
20. 20000 / 40000 (40000)

So uh, how'd I do.
Thoughts I have... I do limit rebuys to only 1. I want it to be a back up where everyone gets a chance to play for that 1.5-2hrs. I don't want someone to go home in 20 minutes. But I also don't want an unlimited rebuy shove fest. Ideally, Id like to maybe adjust the first levels to not have the BBA or maybe start it after the first break. I want it to be slow at first and then ramp up to hit the time target. I don't know why, but I'm, scared of a tournament taking forever and people feeling like it is too slow. Any recommendations?

It’s good but if you want to go down the OCD rabbit hole… I’ve played around with different versions of a blind schedule. IMO, you want the rate of increase to be consistent the whole way through. You go from doubling every 2 levels to every 3 levels, then back again. I’d pick a lane and adjust your other variables around that.

Any shorter than 15 minutes and you won’t get a full orbit per round. Since you have a finish time in mind and your levels are short as is, I’d go with a structure that doubles every 2 levels instead of 3, and increase your level length to offset.

Try taking out the 500/1000, 1000/2000 levels (etc) that would cause your increase rate to drop from 50% to 33% (ish). Round off and color up the hundreds when it makes sense (1600 can be 1500, 2400 can be 2500, etc.) And if that all means you’ve taken out 2 or 3 levels, increase your level length to 17 or 18 minutes.

A couple rules of thumb to remember. The blinds will begin forcing the short stacks into attrition when the average starting stack drops to about 50 BB. Time spent over 100 BB will give everyone time at the table, but isn’t going to meaningfully impact the outcome of the tourney. When the average stack drops to 20 BB it’ll stay there as you lose players at around that rate. How deep you start only matters at the beginning, so if you’re on a fixed time budget, you get to choose the trade off between your players “getting their moneys worth,” (important for the fun factor) vs time spent in impactful play (which will keep the end stages from feeling like a shootout).

 

[Baseten333]

It’s good but if you want to go down the OCD rabbit hole… I’ve played around with different versions of a blind schedule. IMO, you want the rate of increase to be consistent the whole way through. You go from doubling every 2 levels to every 3 levels, then back again. I’d pick a lane and adjust your other variables around that.

Any shorter than 15 minutes and you won’t get a full orbit per round. Since you have a finish time in mind and your levels are short as is, I’d go with a structure that doubles every 2 levels instead of 3, and increase your level length to offset.

Try taking out the 500/1000, 1000/2000 levels (etc) that would cause your increase rate to drop from 50% to 33% (ish). Round off and color up the hundreds when it makes sense (1600 can be 1500, 2400 can be 2500, etc.) And if that all means you’ve taken out 2 or 3 levels, increase your level length to 17 or 18 minutes.

A couple rules of thumb to remember. The blinds will begin forcing the short stacks into attrition when the average starting stack drops to about 50 BB. Time spent over 100 BB will give everyone time at the table, but isn’t going to meaningfully impact the outcome of the tourney. When the average stack drops to 20 BB it’ll stay there as you lose players at around that rate. How deep you start only matters at the beginning, so if you’re on a fixed time budget, you get to choose the trade off between your players “getting their moneys worth,” (important for the fun factor) vs time spent in impactful play (which will keep the end stages from feeling like a shootout).

18 Min levels
1. 100 / 200
2. 100 / 200 (200)
3. 200 / 300 (300)
4. 200 / 400 (400)
5. 300 / 600 (600)
BREAK - END REBUYS (10 min)
6. 400 / 800 (800)
7. 600 / 1200 (1200)
8. 800 / 1600 (1600)

Like this? Where do I go from here. A little confused by "Round off and color up the hundreds when it makes sense (1600 can be 1500, 2400 can be 2500, etc.)"
Do you mind showing an example?

so level 9 1200 / 2500 and then 10. 1500 / 3000?

 

[TheRealStephen12]

You almost have it right.

Drop 500/1000 and 1200/2400, change 200/300 to 100/300 and 1000/2000 to 1100/2200. It will make all blind increases pre level 17 except for the BBA between 33.3% and 50%. Rounding off is not really helpful in this situation.

You can also add a 100/100 level if you want, since you dropped two already. That will help players get a bit of extra play for their money.

 

[Baseten333]

18 min Levels
1. 100 / 200
2. 100 / 200 (200)
3. 100 / 300 (300)
4. 200 / 400 (400)
5. 300 / 600 (600)
6. 400 / 800 (800)
BREAK - END REBUYS (10 min)
7. 600 / 1200 (1200)
8. 800 / 1600 (1600)
9. 1100 / 2200 (2200)
10. 1500 / 3000 (3000)
BREAK - Remove t100 and t500 (10 min)
11. 2000 / 4000 (4000)
12. 3000 / 6000 (6000)
13. 4000 / 8000 (8000)
14. 6000 / 12000 (12000) Estimated End of Tournament for 10 Players
15. 8000 / 16000 (16000)
BREAK - Remove T1000
16. 10000 / 20000 (20000) Estimated End of Tournament 20 Players
17. 15000 / 30000 (30000)
18. 20000 / 40000 (40000)

Ahh this feels better for sure. Timing seems perfect.

 

[Mr Winberg]

840,000 / 20BB = 42,000 (So end level should be roughly 10000 / 20000 (20000)

The "20BB rule" says it will end around 20k/40k, not 10k/20k

15 Min levels

This is short. I recommend 20 minute levels at least, but then the progression must be steaper.

1. 100 / 200
2. 100 / 200 (200)

Skip L1, start with antes from the get go.

11. 1200 / 2400 (2400)
12. 1500 / 3000 (3000)
BREAK - Remove t100 and t500 (10 min)

The T100 will be a hassle in level 11 with a value of only 1/24 of a BB, and won't be used at all in L12. This slows down the game.

I want the tournament to end in 4.5 hours max.

Even if it ends at 10k/20k, you haven't included beaks. It would end after 4h50min plus however long the third break is.

To have 20 min levels, 2×10 min breaks and a quick third break (let's not include in calcs), you can only have 250 minutes of playing time, meaning 12-13 levels. That's quite few. So let's assume 15 minutes efter though I feel it's too short, which gives us 16-17 levels.

Here is an example of that:

100/200
100/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
10 min break, remove T100 (this early removal speeds up play since there are fewer chips to count, but means a lopsided level 7)
500/1000
1000/1500
1000/2000
1500/3000
Short break, coloring up T500 is quick
2k/4k
3k/6k
4k/8k
10 min break, color up T1k
5k/10k
10k/15k
10k/20k
15k/30k
20k/40k

 

[Mr Winberg]

@Baseten333 , maybe my response was too long and therfore unreadable, but I see a big issue so I'll try again and won't focus on the minor stuff:

I want the tournament to end in 4.5 hours max.

I'm, scared of a tournament taking forever and people feeling like it is too slow.

The miscalculation below:

840,000 / 20BB = 42,000 (So end level should be roughly 10000 / 20000 (20000)

means that most of your tourneys will go for about two levels longer than you're estimating.

In addition, with only 15 minute levels the end game will be rushed and "turbo-ish", which means that the 20 BB rule is often breached. You might go 3 levels longer than estimated.

In addition, it doesn't look like you are taking breaks into account in the 4.5h? If so, they will go on for 25 minutes more (if the third break is 5 min).

So worst case 70 minutes longer! (3 levels of 15 + 2×10 + 5)

With 20 players and rebuys I would consider having a longer tourney than 4.5h incl breaks.

My 2 cents

 

[Baseten333]

I

@Baseten333 , maybe my response was too long and therfore unreadable, but I see a big issue so I'll try again and won't focus on the minor stuff:



The miscalculation below:

means that most of your tourneys will go for about two levels longer than you're estimating.

In addition, with only 15 minute levels the end game will be rushed and "turbo-ish", which means that the 20 BB rule is often breached. You might go 3 levels longer than estimated.

In addition, it doesn't look like you are taking breaks into account in the 4.5h? If so, they will go on for 25 minutes more (if the third break is 5 min).

So worst case 70 minutes longer! (3 levels of 15 + 2×10 + 5)

With 20 players and rebuys I would consider having a longer tourney than 4.5h incl breaks.

My 2 cents

Sorry, I definitely should have clarified a few things and I also think by posting this structure and having the conversations with you guys, I’m starting to get a better idea of what is important for my game.

1. Timing is still important to me.
2. I like structures that have breaks evenly throughout. I was wanting the total playtime to be 4.5-5 hours excluding breaks. I don’t expect to have 2 full tables at all times, so it going a little longer than that in a worse case scenario is fine. I just mean if i have 8-12 players with maybe a few extra, i hope it would end in the 4 hour range.
3. I do actually hate 15min and 18min levels. The reason I even considered it was because I felt in order to have a “smooth” progression, more levels were needed and breaks every 4-6 levels was easy to organize.
4. I don’t mind it to be “Turbo ish.” My vision is that it exponentially ramps up. Slow to start to “get your money’s worth” of playing time.

I do also realize my calculations were off.
right now, my focus is what do the first levels look like with 20 min levels. I like coloring up the 100s and 500s separately. I prefer to race. (Which is also funny since timing is important to me but everyone prefers to round up haha.
I’ve been looking at poker atlas to see what the casino structures look like. I know they are flawed but couldn’t hurt to look at.

Most of them go
1.100/100 - 100
2.100/200 - 200
3. 200/300 - 300
3. 200/400 - 400
4. 300/600 - 600
5. 400/800 - 800
6. 500/1000 - 1000
7. 600/1200 - 1200
Break
8. 1000/1500 - 1500
9. 1000/2000 - 2000
10. 1500/3000 - 3000
Break

I’m thinking remove level 1, make level 3 100/300,

1. 100/200 - 200
2. 100/300 - 300
3. 200/400 - 400
Break
4. 300/600 - 600
5. 400/800 - 800
6. 600/1200 - 1200
Break remove t100
7. 1000/1500 - 1500
8. 1000/2000 - 2000
9. 1500/3000 - 3000
Break remove t500
20 min levels. Solid break every hour. then go from there to finish off the timing.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Gotcha.

I like coloring up the 100s and 500s separately. I prefer to race. (Which is also funny since timing is important to me but everyone prefers to round up haha.

As someone who has hoasted loads of 20+ player tournaments, my only comment here is that any host that values his/her toilet time will round and not race

 

[Natskule]

Personally I start with less and lengthen the levels. Anything less than 20 minutes at a social game and you're lucky to get an orbit. Unless your doing an all day type event, start with 100 BB, that is plenty, just lengthen the the levels out a bit. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Baseten333]

Yes. I already planned to go down to 25K stacks. Maybe will go to 20 but i’ll try 25 first

 

[sebjag]

Yes. I already planned to go down to 25K stacks. Maybe will go to 20 but i’ll try 25 first

What chip structure will you utilize with a SS of 25K?

I'm planning on doing the same and would go for: 10/8/10/2

What blind structure have you considered so far going with your new 25K starting stack set up?

 

[Baseten333]

My set is
200 T100
100 T500
250 T1000
125 T5000
25 T25000

I can support 0-13 players
15/5/11/2

14-16 players
10/6/11/2

17-20
10/4/12/2

 

[sebjag]

My set is
200 T100
100 T500
250 T1000
125 T5000
25 T25000

I can support 0-13 players
15/5/11/2

14-16 players
10/6/11/2

17-20
10/4/12/2

And what final blind structure have you chosen to utilize?

 

[Mr Winberg]

And what final blind structure have you chosen to utilize?

Sorry for jumping in as it was not directed at me, but rather than having a "final structure" I am a big fan of mixing it up. Sometimes shorter levels and a really smooth progression, other times the opposite, etc. I do not think it is necessary (or even recommended) to have a certain structure in mind, as long as you have enough chips to cater for your intended number of players you can experiment and find what works for you.

That said, I think a structure that is pretty good is the 2-3-4-6-8-12-16 progression of the big blind. For a T100 base it would be
100/200
100/300 (can't have 150/300)
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
(then it starts over)
1k/2k
1.5k/3k
...
8k/16k
(and then again, if the chip count is large enough)
10k/20k
15k/30k
20k/40k
...

You can't really go wrong with the above!

Tweaks can be made, for example in a post above I suggested a version that removes low-value chips early.

Tl;dr: Hosts shouldn't be afraid to experiment with their structures

 

[Baseten333]

And what final blind structure have you chosen to utilize?

20min levels
1. 100/200-200
2. 100/300-300
3. 200/400-400
Break - 5min
4. 300/600-600
5. 400/800-800 (Rebuys end at the start of this level)
6. 600/1200-1200
Break - Remove T100
7. 1000/1500-1500
8. 1000/2000-2000
9. 1500/3000-3000
Break - Remove T500
10. 2000/4000-4000
11. 3000/6000-6000
12. 4000/8000-8000
Break- Remove T1000
13. 5000/10000-10000
14. 10000/150000-15000
15. 10000/20000-20000
Break
16. 15000/30000-30000
17. 20000/40000-40000
18. 30000/60000-60000

Assuming Full 2 tables of 10.
25K starting x 20 = 500,000
Rebuy 25K x 8 = 200,000 (Assuming around 40%)
Total 700,000 Chips. 20BB rule = 35K
So 5 Hours 20-40min of playtime on the high end which is not likely.

I may even go down to 20K starting stacks. Not sure. But for now, i’ll test this one out and see how it goes and adjust from there.

 

[BGinGA]

My set is
200 T100
100 T500
250 T1000
125 T5000
25 T25000

I can support 0-13 players
15/5/11/2

14-16 players
10/6/11/2

17-20
10/4/12/2

A T100-base set with only 10x T100 starting chips per player does not adequately support events that utilize a BBA. Levels L3 and L5 will be particularly painful.

 

[sebjag]

Sorry for jumping in as it was not directed at me, but rather than having a "final structure" I am a big fan of mixing it up. Sometimes shorter levels and a really smooth progression, other times the opposite, etc. I do not think it is necessary (or even recommended) to have a certain structure in mind, as long as you have enough chips to cater for your intended number of players you can experiment and find what works for you.

That said, I think a structure that is pretty good is the 2-3-4-6-8-12-16 progression of the big blind. For a T100 base it would be
100/200
100/300 (can't have 150/300)
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
(then it starts over)
1k/2k
1.5k/3k
...
8k/16k
(and then again, if the chip count is large enough)
10k/20k
15k/30k
20k/40k
...

You can't really go wrong with the above!

Tweaks can be made, for example in a post above I suggested a version that removes low-value chips early.

Tl;dr: Hosts shouldn't be afraid to experiment with their structures

Love to hear this! Will look to test between different structures as well to switch up and keeps thing innovating! Thanks for making this comment @Mr Winberg, needed to hear this

 

[sebjag]

A T100-base set with only 10x T100 starting chips per player does not adequately support events that utilize a BBA. Levels L3 and L5 will be particularly painful.

@BGinGA does it support games without ante?

 

[Baseten333]

Hehe not me excited about @BGinGA responding to one of my posts. I’m gonna be a fan boy now.

 

[Baseten333]

A T100-base set with only 10x T100 starting chips per player does not adequately support events that utilize a BBA. Levels L3 and L5 will be particularly painful.

One thing I appreciate about t100 based tournaments is that I feel making change is way easier. I know you have a strong stance on this and I know it's valid. Why do casinos seem to run ok with only 10 and heck they get away with only 2 t500 in wsop. It seems to work for them and I'm sure Ill cave and get more t100s. Just curious to pick your brain on that.

 

[BGinGA]

Why do casinos seem to run ok with only 10 and heck they get away with only 2 t500 in wsop. It seems to work for them

It actually doesn't work very well. Most casino events feature lots of early change-making, although larger-field dynamics does affect playability to some degree (as more sheer numbers of certain chips are available, plus a larger number of early player eliminations spreads the totals of specific chip denominations across fewer players, thus increasing their average individual count).

But in general, what is common casino tournament practice is rarely optimum for a good home game experience, as the goals of the two events are very different.

@BGinGA does it support games without ante?

10/x stacks work okay for non-ante T100-base events, but optimum tournament numbers are typically between 12-16 chips per player of the lowest starting denomination(s) in play.

 

[Baseten333]

It actually doesn't work very well. Most casino events feature lots of early change-making, although larger-field dynamics does affect playability to some degree (as more sheer numbers of certain chips are available, plus a larger number of early player eliminations spreads the totals of specific chip denominations across fewer players, thus increasing their average individual count).

But in general, what is common casino tournament practice is rarely optimum for a good home game experience, as the goals of the two events are very different.


10/x stacks work okay for non-ante T100-base events, but optimum tournament numbers are typically between 12-16 chips per player of the lowest starting denomination(s) in play.

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Huskerchipper]

Personally I start with less and lengthen the levels. Anything less than 20 minutes at a social game and you're lucky to get an orbit. Unless your doing an all day type event, start with 100 BB, that is plenty, just lengthen the the levels out a bit. But that's just my opinion.

Couldn't possibly agree more

 

[Baseten333]

Ok! Its been a few days... I thought I'd post my "As of now" more solidified structure.

Taking in everything and trying to apply what I feel works for me / is best practice...

My Tournament Set
200 x t100
100 x t500
250 x t1000
125 x t5000
25 x t25000

Starting stack 25K
10/4/12/2
I felt that 20K was a little light. 30K is a little too much. 25K is a nice in-between.

I don't have 300 t100. I could buy more, but my vision for the game is to have a slow start that allows some decent play and noting that 10 t100 isn't good for BBA, you'll see in my structure that I have made a sort of hybrid structure to accommodate for this.

12 t1000 should keep enough low denoms in play so that rebuy stacks can just be 5 t5000 or 1 t25000 if the t5000s are depleted.

Yes I have 4 t500. Personal opinion. 2 t500 is certainly too few. I do feel that 6 is too much and I don't really want to buy an extra 25 t500. I have always felt 4-5 t500 is the sweet spot for me.

I've also come to the conclusion that rounding is absolutely better than chip races. Idk why in my head i've been so fixated on chip races being the most fair. I have an extra 20 t500 and 10 t1000 to use for rounding up or to into circulation through rebuys.

For the structure....
20 Min Levels - 10 Min Breaks
1. 100/200
2. 100/300
3. 200/400
BREAK
4. 300/600
5. 400/800
6. 600/1200
BREAK: Remove T100, End Rebuy Period, Start BBA
7. 1000/1500 (1500)
8. 1000/2000 (2000)
9. 1500/3000 (3000)
BREAK: Remove T500
10. 2000/4000 (4000)
11. 3000/6000 (6000)
12. 4000/8000 (8000)
BREAK
13. 6000/12000 (12000)
14. 8000/16000 (16000)
15. 10000/20000 (20000)
BREAK: Remove T1000
16. 15000/30000 (30000)
17. 20000/40000 (40000)
18. 30000/60000 (60000)

Starting the BBA with T500/T1000, I feel like I have the chips to support it and it will help speed up play to the desired time without running into the issue we would have with the T100s. (Or at least the issue is reduced as 12 t1000 is closer to 15 than 10)

I'm allowing rebuys in the first 2 Hours. I'll limit the rebuys...
2 Rebuys allowed for any entrant that starts at the beginning of level 1.
1 Rebuy if entrant late registers in the first hour.
If you max late reg in level 4-6 (Second Hour), no rebuys available.
Ideally, Id stop rebuys at level 4 or 5, but for the sake of pretty cut offs every break, I've extended it.
This is one of two things Ill probably test and tweak over time.
I'm afraid of the max late reg strategy becoming a thing. Also don't want rebuys to be abused. Still making up my mind on this.

The only other thing I'm still sorting out is if I just want to remove t1000 after level 12 and instead...
13. 5000/10000 (10000)
14. 10000/15000 (15000)
15. 10000/20000 (20000)
16. 15000/30000 (30000)
17. 20000/40000 (40000)
18. 30000/60000 (60000)

They are pretty similar, but I thought by making t5000 the smallest denom, The tournament would be forced to end quicker to the desired 4.5-5.5 hour playtime. Just a thought... but it might be too aggressive. Will probably test this in my next game.

I guess I also had a thought regarding number of players and BBA, Maybe don't use it if a certain threshold of entrants happens. 15> uses BBA and less than that no BBA. IDK just a thought if anyone has experience with implementing something like that.

 

[BGinGA]

All things considered, ^this^ latest variation is the best one yet, with one exception: increasing the blinds plus adding a bba in L7 is an unneccessarily huge increase over L6. Much better to do:

L6 600 1200
(end re-buys, color-up T100 chips)
L7 1000 1500
L8 1000 1500 (1500)
and continue on with bba from there.

Also, no valid reason to remove T1000s early after L12 and thus artificially creating a much smaller jump than usual. In addition, this will actually have the reverse effect than what you stated was desired -- larger total blinds size will trump a larger smallest chip denom size regarding aggression.

Lastly, don't alter re-buy rules for latecomers (you are essentially giving early and on-time arrivals more chances, at a point in time they aren't typically needed). And with 25k starting stacks, it's pretty unlikely you'll see many re-buys anyway (unless the entry fee is dirt-cheap or near-meaningless). Ending rebuys after L6 is is fine (a re-buy stack then is less than 21bb).

Also, #rounding4life

 

[JustinInMN]

I felt that 20K was a little light. 30K is a little too much. 25K is a nice in-between.

Sure, but bear in mind if your stated goal is for 4.5 hours max and 20 minute levels, it is going to take you 17-18 levels, even if we assume only a 30% re-buy rate. So that puts you closer to 6 hours plus breaks.

Now that said, my experience with the 20BB rule (and I still mainly host tournaments without any antes) is that it usually wraps up 1-3 levels before that point. So I have come to look at the 20BB rule more as a longest-case-scenario than as an "average." But bear in mind if 4.5 hours is truly a hard window. You probably should reconsider 20K stacks to be good enough or be willing to cut a few levels.

For the structure....
20 Min Levels - 10 Min Breaks
1. 100/200
2. 100/300
3. 200/400
BREAK
4. 300/600
5. 400/800
6. 600/1200
BREAK: Remove T100, End Rebuy Period, Start BBA
7. 1000/1500 (1500)
8. 1000/2000 (2000)
9. 1500/3000 (3000)
BREAK: Remove T500
10. 2000/4000 (4000)
11. 3000/6000 (6000)
12. 4000/8000 (8000)
BREAK
13. 6000/12000 (12000)
14. 8000/16000 (16000)
15. 10000/20000 (20000)
BREAK: Remove T1000
16. 15000/30000 (30000)
17. 20000/40000 (40000)
18. 30000/60000 (60000)

This iteration is pretty good except you are looking at nearly 6.5 hours of real time. I am figuring 650K in play with 25K stacks (20 entries and 6 re-entries, a low-end 30% rate, but with a deep starting stack, probably reasonable), so the 20BB level would be level 17. Just cutting your stack to 20K would save you a level there. I like @BGinGA's suggestion to make the first BBA level a repeat of the previous blinds, otherwise it is a huge transition. But I would suggest instead that you just make level 7 1000-2000 instead of 1000-1500 and then keep level 8 and 9 the same, instead of effectively adding a new level. I would remove level 14 as well. These changes probably get you back to a 5.5 hour max, and more likelihood of finishing up under 5 hours.

So I would play these levels.

100-200, 100-300, 200-400, Break (1h10 elapsed)
300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, Break (Remove T100, 2h20)
1000-2000, (START BBA) 1000-2000, 1500-3000, BREAK (Remove T500, 3h30)
2K-K, 3K-6K, 4K-8K, 6K-12K, BREAK (Remove T1K, 5h00, yes 4 levels between breaks on this line)
10K-20K, 15K-30K*, 20K-40K** (6h00)

*Expected end of tournament with 20K stacks
** Expected end of tournament with 25K stacks

And in all honestly I think our classic "20BB rule" should really be a "40BB rule" in tournaments structured with an ante, which means the longest case is probably two levels prior. This gets you back toward 5 hours.

I've also come to the conclusion that rounding is absolutely better than chip races. Idk why in my head i've been so fixated on chip races being the most fair. I have an extra 20 t500 and 10 t1000 to use for rounding up or to into circulation through rebuys.

FWIW, I'll throw my 2¢ in here on being pro chip-race. The main reason is I don't like introducing chips from the bank any more than necessary, and I am guessing that may have been the reason for your fixation. There is also a small avenue of exploit where players have no risk for higher sizing so long as they keep at least one odd chip to be rounded.

That said, I get those details do not outweigh the simplicity of rounding for most hosts. Even the introduction of chips is pretty negligible in home events where there won't be more than two color ups. However, if you are doing events with 3-4 or more color ups, then you get into a situation where cumulatively you have introduced from the bank whole buy-ins worth of chips, which I don't love, and assume that's why racing is the casino standard.

 

[BGinGA]

Sure, but bear in mind if your stated goal is for 4.5 hours max and 20 minute levels, it is going to take you 17-18 levels, even if we assume only a 30% re-buy rate. So that puts you closer to 6 hours plus breaks.

Now that said, my experience with the 20BB rule (and I still mainly host tournaments without any antes) is that it usually wraps up 1-3 levels before that point. So I have come to look at the 20BB rule more as a longest-case-scenario than as an "average." But bear in mind if 4.5 hours is truly a hard window. You probably should reconsider 20K stacks to be good enough or be willing to cut a few levels.



This iteration is pretty good except you are looking at nearly 6.5 hours of real time. I am figuring 650K in play with 25K stacks (20 entries and 6 re-entries, a low-end 30% rate, but with a deep starting stack, probably reasonable), so the 20BB level would be level 17. Just cutting your stack to 20K would save you a level there. I like @BGinGA's suggestion to make the first BBA level a repeat of the previous blinds, otherwise it is a huge transition. But I would suggest instead that you just make level 7 1000-2000 instead of 1000-1500 and then keep level 8 and 9 the same, instead of effectively adding a new level. I would remove level 14 as well. These changes probably get you back to a 5.5 hour max, and more likelihood of finishing up under 5 hours.

So I would play these levels.

100-200, 100-300, 200-400, Break (1h10 elapsed)
300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, Break (Remove T100, 2h20)
1000-2000, (START BBA) 1000-2000, 1500-3000, BREAK (Remove T500, 3h30)
2K-K, 3K-6K, 4K-8K, 6K-12K, BREAK (Remove T1K, 5h00, yes 4 levels between breaks on this line)
10K-20K, 15K-30K*, 20K-40K** (6h00)

*Expected end of tournament with 20K stacks
** Expected end of tournament with 25K stacks

And in all honestly I think our classic "20BB rule" should really be a "40BB rule" in tournaments structured with an ante, which means the longest case is probably two levels prior. This gets you back toward 5 hours.



FWIW, I'll throw my 2¢ in here on being pro chip-race. The main reason is I don't like introducing chips from the bank any more than necessary, and I am guessing that may have been the reason for your fixation. There is also a small avenue of exploit where players have no risk for higher sizing so long as they keep at least one odd chip to be rounded.

That said, I get those details do not outweigh the simplicity of rounding for most hosts. Even the introduction of chips is pretty negligible in home events where there won't be more than two color ups. However, if you are doing events with 3-4 or more color ups, then you get into a situation where cumulatively you have introduced from the bank whole buy-ins worth of chips, which I don't love, and assume that's why racing is the casino standard.

Seconded for pointing out that most bba events typically end 2-3 levels sooner than the '20bb rule' indicates.

 

[Mr Winberg]

increasing the blinds plus adding a bba in L7 is an unneccessarily huge increase over L6. Much better to do:

L6 600 1200
(end re-buys, color-up T100 chips)
L7 1000 1500
L8 1000 1500 (1500)

I would have the BBA from the first level. That way you don't need to repeat levels, and you have a greater chance at meeting your deadline. If repeating a level, you're pretty much extending the tournament 1 level.

Now that said, my experience with the 20BB rule (and I still mainly host tournaments without any antes) is that it usually wraps up 1-3 levels before that point.

I agree for longer tournaments, because the longer the levels the more chance for eliminations on that level. But it's very much down to chance, I've had 5h30min tournaments (effective time) end with all from 60 BBs left to 6.7 (don't ask, I don't know how!).

There is also a small avenue of exploit where players have no risk for higher sizing so long as they keep at least one odd chip to be rounded.

No risk for their stack's size, but it's still a risk because the opponent can win more chips that potentially pushes them up a notch when rounding. This actually reduces your stack percentage wise. But either way, I am happy with people exploiting this, my bathroom break as a host is more important than fair play.

 

[JustinInMN]

I would have the BBA from the first level. That way you don't need to repeat levels, and you have a greater chance at meeting your deadline. If repeating a level, you're pretty much extending the tournament 1 level.

The reason we are not designing this with BBA at the start in this case is because we are limited in T100 chips with OP's set.

I don't have 300 t100. I could buy more, but my vision for the game is to have a slow start that allows some decent play and noting that 10 t100 isn't good for BBA, you'll see in my structure that I have made a sort of hybrid structure to accommodate for this.