Struggling with attendance lately - feedback and ideas? (1 Viewer)

[timinater]

PCFers, lately my league has had a bit of a string of poorly attended games. To the point of calling off games due to lack of RSVPs, or in a new low, enough last minute bails/no shows that only one guy showed up (the peerless @Kain8) this weekend. I have a few of my own ideas for the causes and some steps to take to get attendance back up to where I want it, but first I want to hear from you all on some ideas to rejuvenate attendance a little bit.

If you aren't growing a game you're dying, certainly. I'm concerned and believe that the flaky behavior of some players is also frustrating the more dedicated players who are looking forward to a nice full table (or god forbid a second table), and then we get the rug pulled out from under us when a couple hours before the game some players bail.

The lay of the land:

• 8 game tournament series + Final table freeroll $10 to the final table pool from each buy in.
• $40 +$10 entry with re-entry in first 4 levels
• attendance usually flags a bit in the summer, but not to the levels mentioned above
• Games usually scheduled 3-4 weeks in advance, aiming to play every 3ish weeks.
• I am the sole host of this game, and have a young family so that frequency is about all I can manage.
• "Roster" of about 40 players, though in any given season about half show up to at least 1 tourney.
• 10 player max
• 86ing flakey players is generally not something I want to do, at the moment.

So, what do ya'll think?

My own thoughts in spoilers, just so I don't lead the witnesses.

Spoiler: my thoughts

Potential causes:

• Aging of group. A few years back one or two had kids, now almost all married w/kids
• Covid shutdowns ate into the momentum of the league, new habits/routines/priorities emerge
• tiered invites - in the interest of minimizing the number of people coming in/out of the house I tiered my invites based on prior attendance - may have put off some more casual players.
  • Note: In my most recent invite I scrapped this and will scrap it until something like this becomes needed.
• strict rules - we use RROP, no string bets, one chip rule etc. etc. again is this perhaps putting off some more casual players. I do try to strike the balance when new players are coming to give them leeway on more uncommon rules.
• buy in - too low? too high? Re-entry a put off?

Potential remedies:

• deepen the roster of invites
• bring a friend night(s)
• reserved seats at game 2 for those that attend game 1 and so on
• preference for scheduling future games given to those attending current game
• talking to all players and getting a sense of their feelings towards the league/their ability to make it to games.
• remove re-entry?
• discount re-entry?

 

[JMC9389]

I think you're doing just fine. For most working folks, budgeting about $50 to $100 a night for at least 4 to 5 hours of entertainment isn't absurdly expensive. I would consider opening up the rebuy period a couple more levels to give more folks a chance to rebuy and juice the payouts for the night. I do rebuys up to the end of level 6 (two hours of play) and this seems to work well. I have 6-8 players usually a night and we usually have 2 or 3 rebuys on an average night, sometimes there's only one and sometimes there's 5 or 6.

The only thing I would do away with is the tiered invites. Of your known player pool, you can't afford to be stingy or picky with with who to invite. You need players. Invite all of your player pool via evite/email, first 10 to confirm get a seat with the rest going on a wait list in the order they confirmed. On the other hand, I think a "bring a friend" night should be nixed for the security of your home and family. That's a situation that's a total wildcard that can put yourself and others at risk.

Good luck!

 

[timinater]

On the other hand, I think a "bring a friend" night should be nixed for the security of your home and family. That's a situation that's a total wildcard that can put yourself and others at risk.

Interesting point. Definitely not opening the floodgates one this one, if someone brings a friend they'd be vetted for sure. Something to think about regardless.

The only thing I would do away with is the tiered invites

I knew I would forget something, yeah I axed that. It's a pain anyways and at the moment, not required.

 

[swana]

What about a change of pace with some cash games?

 

[TheDuke]

In terms of your thought process/potential causes:
- Having young kids definitely makes things tough.
- Covid - I would have thought with things easing these days attendance would have ramped up.
- Tiered invites? Can you specify how this works. If it is structured in a way where people can see how they're prioritized, it could definitely be off putting for the low priority folks. If you have 40 people on your invite list, invite them all at the same time.
- I think a clear rule set is appealing. I find games that are loose and have arbitrary rulings to be ones that I avoid.
- Have you tried cash games? I find that the majority of tourney players are usually pretty casual. But if you can find a roster of cash game players, they are usually more enthusiastic about attending games.

 

[timinater]

What about a change of pace with some cash games?

That was my idea too during the summer. Was a struggle to get attendance for those, granted my crew largely prefers tourneys.

 

[sheikh617]

Check out Reddit for your area. When I was hosting regular games, I found some very cool folks off Reddit and made sure to vet them before they attended games. Added them on some form of social media, preferably LinkedIn and chatted with them a bit to make sure the fit seemed good.

 

[timinater]

Covid - I would have thought with things easing these days attendance would have ramped up.

I think it cuts both ways - my summer was bonkers busy and I assume was similar for others.

Tiered invites? Can you specify how this works. If it is structured in a way where people can see how they're prioritized, it could definitely be off putting for the low priority folks. If you have 40 people on your invite list, invite them all at the same time.

Tier 1 - anyone qualified for previous season's final table (~14ish) (Seats reserved for 24 hours)
Tier 2 - anyone who played in previous or current season (~6ish) (seats reserved for 24 hours after Tier 1 period)
Tier 3 - everyone else on the roster (20ish) (open invite)

I'm going to update the OP, because I axed for the most recent invite that went out and going forward.

I think a clear rule set is appealing. I find games that are loose and have arbitrary rulings to be ones that I avoid.

I agree but wanted to pose the question in the interest of being thorough/unbiased.

 

[Josh Kifer]

So, every game goes thru this. I've only had, honestly one guy stay the entire time with me. Now, I add 1-2 a year from friends of a friend who fit and get the vibe. it becomes harder and harder, until eventually the cycle works with itself and the old timers still come by.

 

[timinater]

So, every game goes thru this. I've only had, honestly one guy stay the entire time with me. Now, I add 1-2 a year from friends of a friend who fit and get the vibe. it becomes harder and harder, until eventually the cycle works with itself and the old timers still come by.

Yep. This group has been playing since '08. In that time probably 100+ have cycled through.

 

[trever]

Dump the tournaments and host a cash game instead?

If you are doing a tournament series, set the schedule for the full series at the beginning.

Saturday nights are probably the best for the child-afflicted players.

Always be recruiting.

 

[ekricket]

Drop the series and league aspect and go back to just a social tournament structure for a while.

A group I played in ran into this and one if the main things was an inability to commit for the entire series, so what’s the point in attending any games?

Make it a fun social night until you get regulars that will stick with a league, if you can. You may have to develop new invites or wait until everyone’s kids are college age.

 

[timinater]

If you are doing a tournament series, set the schedule for the full series at the beginning.

I think it’s a good practice, but frankly that doesn’t play nice with the rest of my life. I need a bit more flexibility that at the moment, it seems.

Always be recruiting.

I think ultimately this is and always will be the answer.

 

[timinater]

Drop the series and league aspect and go back to just a social tournament structure for a while.

Thats a good conversation starter. Going to ask players about that when I chat individually. My hunch is they all like the idea of the big final table prize, but it will be interesting to see if that’s still the case.

Maybe mix in a few non-point counting games to mix it up one way or the other.

 

[TheLemursReturn]

Do any of your players feel like they're beginners? Those people can tend to drop if they feel like they have no chance of profiting.

On one hand, it might be better to let those players drop if they're really just not into it. But if you want to keep them around, it could help to fiddle with the payout schedule and maybe introduce some side games.

 

[tabletalker7]

Have you considered doing something fun for an add on? I did a tournament close to Easter and for half the price of a buy in you got to pick an Easter egg out of the box. Inside that egg it told you if you got half a starting stack, a whole stack, or a stack and a half! People loved the added "gambling degeneracy" and want me to come up with other ideas to incorporate in the future

 

[timinater]

Do any of your players feel like they're beginners? Those people can tend to drop if they feel like they have no chance of profiting.

I think about this one a lot. I'd say on any given night there is at least half the table that is strong and understand STT concepts/dynamics well, and then another segment is competent enough, but not consistently making deep runs. A few are, lets say, learning. I do wonder if it's a bit tougher of a game than people expect when they join up for the first time.

Have you considered doing something fun for an add on? I did a tournament close to Easter and for half the price of a buy in you got to pick an Easter egg out of the box. Inside that egg it told you if you got half a starting stack, a whole stack, or a stack and a half! People loved the added "gambling degeneracy" and want me to come up with other ideas to incorporate in the future

Not in that way, but I do have a 7-2 payout (first to show it and drag a pot), a donkey payout (first one out gets a $10 rebate), as well as $10 bounties on previous winners.

I have been thinking about a mystery bounty night too.

 

[Jormungandr]

I think about this one a lot. I'd say on any given night there is at least half the table that is strong and understand STT concepts/dynamics well, and then another segment is competent enough, but not consistently making deep runs. A few are, lets say, learning. I do wonder if it's a bit tougher of a game than people expect when they join up for the first time.

This might not help if you are already having issues with attendance, but you could do a lower stakes game for JUST beginners (though your buy-in would likely be fine even for that). Not a class mind you, but a game setup specifically for newbies who might not know the "culture" and "etiquette" of poker in addition to the rules/strategies. This wouldn't have to be people who have NEVER played poker either, but might include some friends who rarely play or are not competitive.

Then again I don't know how you'd filter people, and it would depend on how deep your friends and friends of friends pool of people is. But just an idea.

 

[Mortalpawn]

I make individual calls to each person. Calling and chatting on general topics with someone for a bit usually works best. I get a much higher response rate with a phone call than a generic email that gets lost in a sea of emails.

After the call I follow up with a save the date email and ask for confirmation. Then one more email the week of the event and ask again for confirmation on final numbers, or just call them again if you have the time to confirm.

It is a bit of work but those who commit on the phone usually show up unless they have an emergency.

 

[tabletalker7]

I have been thinking about a mystery bounty night too.

I have done mystery bounties before. Everyone knew someone had a price on their head, but nobody knew who. When that person busted, I paid out the bounty and made the tournament screen show a wanted poster involving the bounty, like this one

It is fun to do once in a while.

 

[BottomPair7]

We transitioned from tournament to cash games. If you have some that still like tournaments, then maybe rotate every other month and start cash out at micro stakes. I add twists to my games. When we were playing tournaments I did bonuses. On-tine chip bonus, there are three Kyles in the group (including myself) so I added a Kyle bonus if you knock two or more Kyles out and then a 7-2 bonus. If you win with 7-2 suited or not, just got to show the cards. I'm thinking about adding a show'em chip for cash games. I think I know a good designer

I like the bring a friend. I leaned on my group for additional recruits. Kind of the "if you vouch for them". I have had some of my really good regulars were friends of a friend.

 

[TheLemursReturn]

I make individual calls to each person

emails

Tell us you're old without telling us you're old.

Zero offense intended. I just got a laugh out of this.

 

[Mortalpawn]

Zero offense intended. I just got a laugh out of this.

Laugh if you want but 8 out of 8 showed for the last game. I used to do just emails amd texts, but the response rate was pitiful.

 

[upNdown]

enough last minute bails/no shows that only one guy showed up

I don’t know how this is even possible. Respectfully, what the hell kind of clowns do you play with?
I don’t want to tell a guy who’s struggling to fill his seats that he needs to cross people off his list, but what the hell? Everybody who plays poker knows how much it sucks when somebody no-shows or last minute cancels, so they don’t do it.
Do they need to be told/warned/threatened?

 

[vohano1973]

I'm with the suggestions to switch to a cash game. People don't have to be there at a specific time and can leave when they want.

The issue with tournaments is that you buy in, play for hours, bust out, and get nothing. With a cash game they can always buy back in with the hope of winning some back. Throw in some bomb pots if you want to spice it up a bit.

Overall, cash games are more relaxed in my experience and easier to manage as a host. Players don't have to be thinking about the levels going up and getting frustrated when hands are taking too long.

 

[Marius L]

What exactly is the structure of the final table? Who goes there? Point based system based on results from the league tourneys?

I would not play in a league format if I didn't know all the dates in advance. I have family myself, and can't always make time for poker on the go. Playing in one or two league games seems like a lot of -EV (considering 20% are taken out) if you can't really be competitive and get to the final table due to not paying enough events or final date don't fit.

I would consider doing just regular tournaments instead.

Or just do cash games which I honestly much prefer to tourneys anyways.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

PCFers, lately my league has had a bit of a string of poorly attended games. To the point of calling off games due to lack of RSVPs, or in a new low, enough last minute bails/no shows that only one guy showed up (the peerless @Kain8) this weekend. I have a few of my own ideas for the causes and some steps to take to get attendance back up to where I want it, but first I want to hear from you all on some ideas to rejuvenate attendance a little bit.

If you aren't growing a game you're dying, certainly. I'm concerned and believe that the flaky behavior of some players is also frustrating the more dedicated players who are looking forward to a nice full table (or god forbid a second table), and then we get the rug pulled out from under us when a couple hours before the game some players bail.

The lay of the land:

• 8 game tournament series + Final table freeroll $10 to the final table pool from each buy in.
• $40 +$10 entry with re-entry in first 4 levels
• attendance usually flags a bit in the summer, but not to the levels mentioned above
• Games usually scheduled 3-4 weeks in advance, aiming to play every 3ish weeks.
• I am the sole host of this game, and have a young family so that frequency is about all I can manage.
• "Roster" of about 40 players, though in any given season about half show up to at least 1 tourney.
• 10 player max
• 86ing flakey players is generally not something I want to do, at the moment.

So, what do ya'll think?

My own thoughts in spoilers, just so I don't lead the witnesses.

Spoiler: my thoughts

Potential causes:

• Aging of group. A few years back one or two had kids, now almost all married w/kids
• Covid shutdowns ate into the momentum of the league, new habits/routines/priorities emerge
• tiered invites - in the interest of minimizing the number of people coming in/out of the house I tiered my invites based on prior attendance - may have put off some more casual players.
  • Note: In my most recent invite I scrapped this and will scrap it until something like this becomes needed.
• strict rules - we use RROP, no string bets, one chip rule etc. etc. again is this perhaps putting off some more casual players. I do try to strike the balance when new players are coming to give them leeway on more uncommon rules.
• buy in - too low? too high? Re-entry a put off?

Potential remedies:

• deepen the roster of invites
• bring a friend night(s)
• reserved seats at game 2 for those that attend game 1 and so on
• preference for scheduling future games given to those attending current game
• talking to all players and getting a sense of their feelings towards the league/their ability to make it to games.
• remove re-entry?
• discount re-entry?

Sorry if I missed it (didn't read all the posts), but how do you send your invites out? I ask because I recently discovered that it matters. I was using a simple register if interested app. I was not requiring a no or maybe response

The downfall with this is that I was unable to tell who was a no, a maybe, or simply ignored the invite. This last weekend I used eVite with a yes/no/maybe response option. I picked up 3 players that hadn't played in a while, and some others that hadn't played in a while commented, "not this time, but maybe next."

I speculate that people just get used to ignoring the invite if a response (even a no) isn't requested.

 

[TheWhat]

Think tiered invites suck, I get why us Hosts want to use them, but they are to hard too manage for all involved.

We ended up with a Private Facebook Group, where you can still tier invites, and Members can invite others in. The posts go up, and its a Yes No Maybe, we confirm playing as soon as it is obvious if we have or don't have numbers. We will also post Polls for multiple dates (as below) so it's easy to see that we are playing next Thursday. Communication is easy amongst all Members if they want, and there is the added bonus of pictures / gifs / etc. A reminder also gets sent out automatically an hour before scheduled time; and as we play cash people who may be late can easily tell if a game is on, and the option to join late exists. This cuts me down to only having 3 or 4 players I need to contact via phone / email. For nothing else, switching to this style of invite, has made my life easier, and probably makes me pick up on the other nuances of hosting the game more quickly. Ie when it's a food night, when it's a bring your spouse night, etc

 

[timinater]

I would not play in a league format if I didn't know all the dates in advance. I have family myself, and can't always make time for poker on the go. Playing in one or two league games seems like a lot of -EV (considering 20% are taken out) if you can't really be competitive and get to the final table due to not paying enough events or final date don't fit.

I would consider doing just regular tournaments instead.

This is on the table for sure. In the past when I've asked about it, its been a resounding "yes" to continuing along with the current format, but I am curious to see if that is still the case.

It's incredibly easy to qualify for the final table, and the date is scheduled and agreed upon by everyone near the end of the season - though I do think some more casual players might opt to skip league games for the reasons you mention.

 

[timinater]

I don’t know how this is even possible. Respectfully, what the hell kind of clowns do you play with?
I don’t want to tell a guy who’s struggling to fill his seats that he needs to cross people off his list, but what the hell? Everybody who plays poker knows how much it sucks when somebody no-shows or last minute cancels, so they don’t do it.
Do they need to be told/warned/threatened?

Yeah man, I know. It's laughable. I'm not going to cross anyone off just yet but I'm certainly going to cater to the schedule of those that do show up.