RichMahogany
Straight Flush
I love Reddit sometimes
Daniel Negreanu vs Doug Polk (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter RainmanTrail
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Regularjohn
Straight
OK so I watched the last 20 minutes of the session and most of the post match interviews.
Gonna have to side with Doug on this one (shocker I know). Dnegs tanking every decision is a stall tactic because he doesn't know how to adjust against Doug's limping strat. You could argue dnegs is just trying to tilt doug, and I'm sure that's part of it, but at the end of the day this is borderline angle shooting. Doug limping is still part of a nlh strat, vs taking the max decision on each decision is just gaming wsop rules on their site.
Now before people get bent of shape about what I just said, take a minute and think about if this was happening in your home game and how you would handle it.
Gonna have to side with Doug on this one (shocker I know). Dnegs tanking every decision is a stall tactic because he doesn't know how to adjust against Doug's limping strat. You could argue dnegs is just trying to tilt doug, and I'm sure that's part of it, but at the end of the day this is borderline angle shooting. Doug limping is still part of a nlh strat, vs taking the max decision on each decision is just gaming wsop rules on their site.
Now before people get bent of shape about what I just said, take a minute and think about if this was happening in your home game and how you would handle it.
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Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
There's no clock - they are playing a predefined number of hands - so tanking for the sake of tanking should be a non-issue. If someone tanks in a home game, there is always a clock - a time when everyone goes home, so the tanking takes away from the total number of hands played.
The two are not comparable.
That said, I hate tanking in low-value decision moments. Take your damn turn!
The two are not comparable.
That said, I hate tanking in low-value decision moments. Take your damn turn!
Regularjohn
Straight
i see your point.
i guess what i'm saying is, its a dick move outside the realm of strategy. which is why im comparing it to angle shooting. its technically legal, but its a dick move. if the shoe was on the other foot, and doug was doing this, i'd still call it a dick move.
at the end of the day, dnegs doesnt know how to handle his limping strat. he pretty much admitted this in the post-match. he had to look up hand charts and solvers as it was happening. he's trying to learn on the fly.
phil galfond pointed out on the stream that he would have been more stubborn than doug. he would limp all day, and if that means the challenge takes even longer, so be it.
i guess what i'm saying is, its a dick move outside the realm of strategy. which is why im comparing it to angle shooting. its technically legal, but its a dick move. if the shoe was on the other foot, and doug was doing this, i'd still call it a dick move.
at the end of the day, dnegs doesnt know how to handle his limping strat. he pretty much admitted this in the post-match. he had to look up hand charts and solvers as it was happening. he's trying to learn on the fly.
phil galfond pointed out on the stream that he would have been more stubborn than doug. he would limp all day, and if that means the challenge takes even longer, so be it.
There is a clock in that they agreed to play 2 hours minimum every other day.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Bwah ha ha
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
So the challenge will take more days, but the delay tactic won't affect the total number of hands played.
Regularjohn
Straight
He's not tanking because he is thinking about what to do in a puzzling spot, he is tanking on EVERY decision to slow the game down so he can figure out a counter strategy. Doug did a complete 180 in his strat, and even tho dnegs talked a big game thats easy to counter, it didnt seem that way. If it was easy to counter he would be playing at light speed to take advantage of that spot.
Imo, this is akin to playing at a casino and villain just won a monster pot (lets say he quadruples up in a single hand or a run of hands in a row). Now, every single DECISION he takes for-f*ing-er to to slow the table down so he doesnt give people a chance to win their money back. Yes, tanking is LEGAL, but I'm not going to pretend myself or anyone on this forum wouldnt call the floor over.
Imo (again), an angle is anything that is legal by the rule set but is disingenuous to the game or people at the table and would give someone an unfair advantage by carrying it out. Someone said on another forum, its completely legal for me to scream at the top of my lungs when someone is involved in a hand, but I doubt anyone would let it fly in their home game or a casino.
And yes, they are playing for a lot of money, so we expect them to pull out some crazy stuff. But it goes against the spirit of the challenge. When Galfond was losing against venividi he wasnt calling a bomb threat to his apartment so it gave him more time to study. Lines need to be established, and I believe this was a line crosser.
edit: 3 of a kind upgrade post weeeee
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After an interesting week Doug managed to restored part of the huge lead he had.
Not long to go now. Going to be interesting how the one finishes with less than 4k hands to go.
Has Negreanu commented on why he's tanking? Are we sure he's not tanking to make sure he uses consistent time to prevent giving away tells with his timing?
To play without giving any time tells away, you would need to make every move at the same time "tick". Which means, because of those spots where you need to take time, you have to set your "tick" on the high side.
It's a long shot, but it's possible that's an at least partial motivation for why he's playing this way.
Ahh found this on the matter:
"Negreanu further addressed the elephant in the room after the session during his post-game sit down with Jeff Platt and gingepoker. “Basically with limps, I am making no decision before the flop.” Negreanu then said he needs to refer to “range sheets” to make each of his decisions for limps, which take time to reference. He then takes the strategy further for other plays to disguise what type of hand he has." https://bestbetusa.com/poker/negreanu-polk-day-33/
So he's at least claiming it's to help disguise his hand.
"Negreanu further addressed the elephant in the room after the session during his post-game sit down with Jeff Platt and gingepoker. “Basically with limps, I am making no decision before the flop.” Negreanu then said he needs to refer to “range sheets” to make each of his decisions for limps, which take time to reference. He then takes the strategy further for other plays to disguise what type of hand he has." https://bestbetusa.com/poker/negreanu-polk-day-33/
So he's at least claiming it's to help disguise his hand.
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h
he was tanking as he originally thought he had an edge against limping then realised he didnt and wanted to basically discourage limping and or drag the session out so that he had more time to study how to combat a limping strategy.
Yeah I think that's it.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Lol, DNEGS was tanking like that because he realized he is outmatched heads-up by Doug and it was the only "power move" he had left to feel like he had any control over the situation.
Dnegs is a man-child throwing a tempur-tantrum because he's not getting his way and knows he can't win the match
Dnegs is a man-child throwing a tempur-tantrum because he's not getting his way and knows he can't win the match
stellrnebula
Sitting Out
Doug stated that he had no issues at all with Daniel taking more time from the big blind to adjust to his limping strategy. He was frustrated that Daniel was tanking on the button for 20sec before raising and then tanking for another 20sec when checked to on the flop. This part of the game tree is completely unaffected by Doug's limping strategy (obviously since Doug doesn't have the opportunity to limp from the BB), so it's ridiculous that Daniel would all of a sudden start taking more time in these spots. It's a stalling tactic that wastes both of their time.
To those arguing that he's within is rights to use as much of his timebank on every street - technically, that's allowed (for the moment), as Doug and Daniel did not put anything in writing on the subject agreeing to not do this before the challenge. However, given they are both regulars in high stakes games, Doug incorrectly assumed that Daniel wouldn't employ these kinds of stalling tactics. There's a higher bar for behavior and code of conduct on the felt from both parties in this kind of match.
Just imagine if you played in a tournament against someone who literally took their entire timebank for every decision on all streets and had to have the clock called on them every single time. Technically, that's within their rights, but it's against the spirit of the game and clearly creates a poor playing experience for others at the table. I know that's the extreme case, but it's meant to illustrate that at some point there's a line where it becomes bad behavior.
If Daniel continues to stall, it sounds like Phil Galfond would likely make a ruling that puts time constraints on actions for each street. At least that's the impression I got from an interview he did on stream recently I think that's unlikely to happen now that Doug feels he won't need to employ a limping strategy. What a mess haha.
To those arguing that he's within is rights to use as much of his timebank on every street - technically, that's allowed (for the moment), as Doug and Daniel did not put anything in writing on the subject agreeing to not do this before the challenge. However, given they are both regulars in high stakes games, Doug incorrectly assumed that Daniel wouldn't employ these kinds of stalling tactics. There's a higher bar for behavior and code of conduct on the felt from both parties in this kind of match.
Just imagine if you played in a tournament against someone who literally took their entire timebank for every decision on all streets and had to have the clock called on them every single time. Technically, that's within their rights, but it's against the spirit of the game and clearly creates a poor playing experience for others at the table. I know that's the extreme case, but it's meant to illustrate that at some point there's a line where it becomes bad behavior.
If Daniel continues to stall, it sounds like Phil Galfond would likely make a ruling that puts time constraints on actions for each street. At least that's the impression I got from an interview he did on stream recently I think that's unlikely to happen now that Doug feels he won't need to employ a limping strategy. What a mess haha.
Funny you mention that. I remember Daniel talking recently about being in exactly that situation - not sure if it was a GG sunday tournament or one of the summer's online WSOP tournaments or what. But he described a situation of being online at a table with a guy who, for whatever crazed reason, thought it was +ev in a MTT to use every second of clock for every decision. As I recall, Daniel didn't enjoy the experience.
Regularjohn
Straight
@Anthony Martino hit the nail on the head. Dnegs doesn't have anything left in his arsenal, he's grasping at straws.
Chip and a chair... Ain't over till the fat lady sings...but I'm fairly confident this is wrapped up. Up 700k with a couple thousand hands left.
Chip and a chair... Ain't over till the fat lady sings...but I'm fairly confident this is wrapped up. Up 700k with a couple thousand hands left.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
This is a completely different circumstance, that I already hit on.
In a tournament, playing slowly burns the clock, giving everybody at the table fewer hands in the tournament.
In the Polk/Negreanu match, they are playing a predetermined number of hands. Nobody is getting swallowed by the blinds, nobody is getting shorted hands. It is simply Negreanu utilizing a weapon - psychological warfare - to put Polk on tilt. Polk has used the Psychological warfare card multiple times, from tagging Negreanu in boast posts, to giant billboards, and even shirts worn at the WSOP.
@BGinGA is correct, both players are asshats. Anyone rooting for either one is simply picking their favorite ass to place on their head.
...unless you have some sort of side money on the match, because I'm not going to disparage degening for the sake of degening. Shit, I've got $10 that Spor Toto Spor Kulübü will finish in the top 2 in Turkish Volleyball, and I'm fairly certain that isn't going to be televised here in Middle Tennessee.
Regularjohn
Straight
this is kind of like when your team doesnt make the super bowl, but the team you hate does. it really doesnt matter who they are playing, you just want them to lose. its kind of like that for me. a) im bored (damn you covid), and this is entertainment b) dnegs douche level is beyond words these days. so it really doesnt matter who he is playing. im going to root against. but not because I think doug is an angel.
Kain8
Flush
I find Doug's rants, past videos on his poker Youtube channel, everything is just my brand of wit and humour. The dude is charismatic and I would happily sit down and have a beer with him. Eager for him to put this baby to bed and make a nice score at the same time. It's not the $1.5M - $2M that I thought he'd do, but decent all the same.
Polk is def. the better heads-up player, although I think Negreanu has more earnings from poker overall, by a significant amount - however Polk is younger, so...::shrug::. So I feel like it's a bit of a lame play by Polk to "challenge" Negreanu in 1v1. I don't know enough about the drama, but it certainly seems like Polk is the one going after Negreanu with his petty targeting of some of Negreanu's "rage videos". Maybe a way to get himself in the spotlight more, steal some of Negreanu's hard-earned fame, which seems like a lame move.
Regularjohn
Straight
well, pretty sure thats a wrap folks:
Yepp, pretty sure this was a wrap long before DP started backing up the truck though. DN did better than I thought and put up a decent fight but this was never very exciting. Too bad they didn’t do another live session (guess they still could, but I doubt it), it was fun to watch. Lol @ some people thinking DN would win if it was all live though. I’m sure he’d fare slightly better but the game is still HU-NLH.
Kain8
Flush
Doug freaking commentated while playing last night. Talk about an alpha move.
Haukea
Sitting Out
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big cooler. Only a few hundred hands left. Doug up about $240K after being down $160k earlier in the session. Looks like they will be playing this through to completion today.
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Haukea
Sitting Out
Great match. Doug backed it up!
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