WSOP Main Event to pay out top 1,000 player next year

snooptodd

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Interesting news from the WSOP. They're going to flatten out the payouts next year, with the top 1,000 players finishing in the money, and gone is the $10 million guarantee for first place. Instead, they'll almost certainly pay everyone who makes the final table $1 million (though they didn't guarantee that).

Here's a full PR they sent out: http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article/wsop-announces-2015-main-event-payout-changes-211785

Most interesting is the fact that if they payouts had been adjusted in such a way last year, there would be a HUGE money jump from 10th ($550,000) to 9th ($1 million), then the next payout is $1.1 million for 8th, then $1.25 million for 7th.

A min cash also goes from $18,400 to $15,000, but they paid 693 places last year, so another 307 would finish in the money under this scheme.

What do you think? Good move or bad move?
 

manamongkids

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horrible move, I hope they only get 2000 entrants.

why dont they just follow a pokerstars-type model. % based payouts.

with their new payout structure lets say you finish 999, and make $15k. their scale could be 550-999 get $15k, I'd be pissed if I were 550th person knocked out. It's possible, that the 999th person didnt make it to lets say day 4, while the 550th person could have almost made it to day 5.

in tournaments like this, they should stick to payouts of the top 10-12% and take it from there. why randomly select 1000 people?
 

Mojo1312

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The pay-outs based upon the same number of entrants as last year will be

1st place: $8,000,000
2nd place: $4,663,527
3rd place: $3,500,000
4th place: $2,750,000
5th place: $2,000,000
6th place: $1,500,000
7th place: $1,250,000
8th place: $1,100,000
9th place: $1,000,000
10-12th place: $550,000
13 to 50th place: $142,500
51 to 100th place: $50,000
101 to 500th place: $20,850
501 to 693rd place: $16,750
694-1,000 place: $15,000
 

jbutler

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good move for caesars. bad move for poker. agree with manamong kids above: payouts should be based on percentage, not some arbitrary bullshit number generated by the marketing department.
 

stocky

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Iirc there was a lot of backlash at the wsop for suggesting a 10mil guarantee for first with a lot of big name players stating that paying out a smaller field would actually discourage recreational players. And proposed a larger pay field with more players being able to make the cash in order to have more of the recreational players returning.
 

ParrotheadMZ

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It might speed things up a bit. From 1000th to 101 not a big money jump. Sucks to finish In the money 900 places in font of the 1000 place guy and only get $5000 more:mad:
 

Mojo1312

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I am not a fan of paying out more than 10% of the field, and I think the 72% difference between first and second place is too much.

You cover the sport. Do you support Negreanu's point of view on the subject, or are you in favor of paying out the top ten percent? What is your opinion regarding the differential in prize money between first and second?
 

Mr Tree

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Not a fan of the new format. Seems ill conceived as like they are trying to get more laymen in who think they have a better chance of making money,
 

snooptodd

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horrible move, I hope they only get 2000 entrants.

Worth noting that this payout scheme will only be in effect if the tournament reaches 5,000+ people. Seems unlikely that there would be less than that unless something crazy happens, last time there were fewer than 5,000 people was 2004.
 
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Poker Zombie

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Love it. I am one of those recreational players that loves a broad payout. Am I more excited to see ten million for first than I am 8 million for first? Hells no. In fact, I hate the 10% payout standard at almost all casinos, and greatly prefer the 20% offered at most home games. So, while 1,000 is arbitrary, it is much closer to my preference. This is the first time EVER I would consider a 10k drop on the WSOP.
 

snooptodd

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I am not a fan of paying out more than 10% of the field, and I think the 72% difference between first and second place is too much.

You cover the sport. Do you support Negreanu's point of view on the subject, or are you in favor of paying out the top ten percent? What is your opinion regarding the differential in prize money between first and second?

The difference between first and second place is actually lower under this scheme than it was last year ($10 million for first, $5.1 million for second as it was, $8 million and $4.6 million under the new scheme). That said, it is still a bit larger than a standard payout scheme, though not by much (in 2013, Merson won $8.3 million and Farber won $5.1 million).

I love the idea of making all the November Niners millionaires. It's great marketing, and should make for an interesting start to the final table. It'll likely go much more quickly, since there aren't any big pay jumps until 5th place.

Personally, I think it would be good for all poker tournaments to do this. Flatten out the payouts and you'll get more recreational players cashing and returning to the tables. Giving 300 more people a positive experience is a good thing in my opinion, and does more for the game than giving the winner another $2 million. Yeah, it makes a deep run less profitable for those that pull it off, but if you want recreational players to play more often, this is a no-brainer. Long term this is good for pros and recreational players.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

Love it. I am one of those recreational players that loves a broad payout. Am I more excited to see ten million for first than I am 8 million for first? Hells no. In fact, I hate the 10% payout standard at almost all casinos, and greatly prefer the 20% offered at most home games. So, while 1,000 is arbitrary, it is much closer to my preference. This is the first time EVER I would consider a 10k drop on the WSOP.

This is why the payout scheme makes sense. You open up the tournament to a broader audience. Making the top-10 percent sounds REALLY hard. Making the top 15 percent sounds hard but attainable.
 

grandgnu

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I think they went too far on this, I mean, look at this payout structure:

1st place: $8,000,000
2nd place: $4,663,527
3rd place: $3,500,000
4th place: $2,750,000
5th place: $2,000,000
6th place: $1,500,000
7th place: $1,250,000
8th place: $1,100,000
9th place: $1,000,000
10-12th place: $550,000
13 to 50th place: $142,500
51 to 100th place: $50,000
101 to 500th place: $20,850
501 to 693rd place: $16,750
694-1,000 place: $15,000


So I fight my way through 6,000 people and finish 114th and I win a measly 2x my buyin for slogging through 5-6 days? Or 50K for coming in 54th out of a field of over 6,000 players? Fuck that, what's the point?

By comparison:

114th (2014) - $52,141
114th (2015) - $20,850

54th (2014) - $152,025
54th (2015) - $50,000

13th (2014) - $441,940
13th (2015) - $142,500


It's a fucking joke is what it is, truly awful and moronic. Look, I'm not opposed to a flatter payout structure, paying more than the top 10% of the field (how about top 12-15%?) but this new setup is just correcting too far to the other extreme. It's awful, it makes me sick and it makes me not even want to play (not that I can afford to, but it really turns it into a min-cash or win and screw everyone in the middle model.
 

snooptodd

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I think they went too far on this, I mean, look at this payout structure:

1st place: $8,000,000
2nd place: $4,663,527
3rd place: $3,500,000
4th place: $2,750,000
5th place: $2,000,000
6th place: $1,500,000
7th place: $1,250,000
8th place: $1,100,000
9th place: $1,000,000
10-12th place: $550,000
13 to 50th place: $142,500
51 to 100th place: $50,000
101 to 500th place: $20,850
501 to 693rd place: $16,750
694-1,000 place: $15,000


So I fight my way through 6,000 people and finish 114th and I win a measly 2x my buyin for slogging through 5-6 days? Or 50K for coming in 54th out of a field of over 6,000 players? Fuck that, what's the point?

By comparison:

114th (2014) - $52,141
114th (2015) - $20,850

54th (2014) - $152,025
54th (2015) - $50,000

13th (2014) - $441,940
13th (2015) - $142,500

This isn't accurate. The payouts given in the PR don't represent the entire payout scale. 13th doesn't get the same as 50th. Pay jumps still occur at normal intervals with incremental increases along the way. They just gave 50th as an example of what the payout would have been under this scheme. They didn't give an example for 13th.
 

Mojo1312

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Personally, I think poker is a game of skill that deserves it's own Super bowl, which is why I believe the WSOP Main Event should only pay-out the top ten percent. I understand that increasing the number of pay-outs is good for the game, but you can pay-out 15% of the field in your $5,000 events.

Simply putdon't degrade the Main Event by employing a marketing strategy that appeals to recreational players.
 

grandgnu

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ah, thank you snoop, here is what the wsop posted, what the OP stated is what greatly threw me off because it looked like for many places they all got the same payout, which just seemed wrong. The below was from the WSOP based on the same attendance as 2014:

1st place: $8,000,000
2nd place: $4,663,527
3rd place: $3,500,000
4th place: $2,750,000
5th place: $2,000,000
6th place: $1,500,000
7th place: $1,250,000
8th place: $1,100,000
9th place: $1,000,000
10-12th place: $550,000 (10th was $565,000 last year)
50th place: $142,500 (50th last year was $152,000)
100th place: $50,000 (last year was $52,000)
500th place: $20,850 (last year was $22,678)
693rd place: $16,750 (last year’s last paid place)
694-1,000 place: $15,000


I guess that's not so unreasonable
 

Mojo1312

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This isn't accurate. The payouts given in the PR don't represent the entire payout scale. 13th doesn't get the same as 50th. Pay jumps still occur at normal intervals with incremental increases along the way. They just gave 50th as an example of what the payout would have been under this scheme. They didn't give an example for 13th.

Good to know. I still believe that they should stick with paying out 10% of the field.
 

grandgnu

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fine, fine, you guys twisted my arm, you can stake me for the ME. I'll even wear an I :ah: Dice Chips hat on tv.
 

manamongkids

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I agree that the ME is like the superbowl. If the WPT, HPT, Deepstacks, WSOP non ME tourneys, basically anything else besides the ME want to go up to 15%. go for it. Get more min cashes, but the WSOP is the holy grail, min cashing in 694th the same as 999th definitely sucks.
 

TheDeezer

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There is no feeling like getting your first tourney cash... Been there done that a few times and I'm due for my first 6 figure score soon !
 

grandgnu

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Although those flatter payouts will also impact how the game is played. When players realize for the next 400 spots there isn't much to lose, I think you're going to see more gambling and risk-taking, more confrontations to accumulate chips, less people trying to squeak up the payout scale.
 

Mojo1312

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I would rather see them pay-out the top nine in the following manner:

8m
5m
4m
3.25m
2.5m
2m
1.5m
1.25m
1.0m

and divide the leftover 2m among the final 10% of the field.
 

bivey

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I have no problem with more payouts, but take a slight bite out of the final four (a million from the winner would pay our 100 more people at $10000) Not that I want the winners to get too much less, but don't take it away from the middle of the payout structure. I think $100k + for anything in top 1-2% is important after you spend 5+ days fighting for it. I'd go maybe 15% and skim a bit off the final table folks.

Or just leave it the way it is and realize that, unfortunately, the fish have been netted and the sharks have less to eat. Think about how many people have drifted away from poker since the 2003 boom peaked? How many home games have dried up? How much harder are the Vegas cash games? I understand the marketing need here, but the end result will be the same. Eventually, poker will move out of the mainstream and back into the shadows.

I'll play in the shadows for sure, but I accept reality. Ok, let the tomatoes fly!
 

MoscowRadio

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IMO they should just use a similar payout structure to the EPT and other PokerStars tournaments. Even in the 100,000 Super High Roller Event they only pay out the top 12%.
 

Poker Zombie

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I don't think the ME is anything like the Super Bowl. The team that finishes last in the Super Bowl STILL GETS PAID, and a hefty sum at that. I am not for paying out everyone, but I am all for 15% (even more for 20%). At a flat number like 1000 (which is as arbitrary as selecting 10% to be paid) if they get more participants because of this marketing idea, they still push it closer to the beloved 10%.
 

grandgnu

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I think from the casinos standpoint it's fantastic. They get another 300-400 people with 15 grand burning a hole in their pockets that will go out and celebrate in Vegas, gamble it up, etc. So by spreading the cash around they figure they benefit more than giving less players more money.
 

Mr Tree

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Although those flatter payouts will also impact how the game is played. When players realize for the next 400 spots there isn't much to lose, I think you're going to see more gambling and risk-taking, more confrontations to accumulate chips, less people trying to squeak up the payout scale.

Since you get a few hundred people before the next ladder in cash this is the absolute correct play. Have to acquire chips in that long plateau before the next rise.
 

grandgnu

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Since you get a few hundred people before the next ladder in cash this is the absolute correct play. Have to acquire chips in that long plateau before the next rise.

Agreed, looking at this:

100th place: $50,000 (last year was $52,000)
500th place: $20,850 (last year was $22,678)
693rd place: $16,750 (last year’s last paid place)
694-1,000 place: $15,000

It looks like there isn't much incentive to "surviving" for those first 500 pay spots, it's all about accumulating to make that super deep run, as there isn't enough incentive to move up the payscale. Should be interesting how it changes the dynamics
 
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