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What's missing here? (4 Viewers)

daschuck77 said:
Ya, for sure. He lawyered up, dug in, and held his ground as stoically as he could. The police wanted the conviction(s) cash, and property.
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Keeping $12k is insane. I don't understand how that can possibly be justified. Convicted of one misdemeanor with a $101 fine, yet somehow you're out $12k.

Any word on how he got raided in the first place? I keep imagining this as one a-hole player getting in some legal trouble and turning over your game to help himself out. Maybe I've watched too many cop shows.
 
daschuck77 said:
Ya, for sure. He lawyered up, dug in, and held his ground as stoically as he could. The police wanted the conviction(s) cash, and property.
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In my experience, the Prosecutor's office always overcharges... they charge anything for which they have a scintilla of evidence. Then later, they can make a plea deal and get a conviction on something they know will stick in exchange for dismissing charges that they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
WedgeRock said:
In my experience, the Prosecutor's office always overcharges... they charge anything for which they have a scintilla of evidence. Then later, they can make a plea deal and get a conviction on something they know will stick in exchange for dismissing charges that they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Truth and a huge problem when someone who can’t afford a decent attorney pleads guilty to get their sentence reduced because of the threats of maximum sentences on those same maxed out charges.
 
I’m thinking you guys are right. Half the force is probably planning their retirement off this one.

Maybe I’m the conspiracy theorist thinking this was absolutely no conspiracy at all. Sounds exactly like how cases are carried out and prosecuted thousands and thousands of times each year. But what do I know? I guess I need to watch some of those cop shows.
 
DMack said:
I’m thinking you guys are right. Half the force is probably planning their retirement off this one.

Maybe I’m the conspiracy theorist thinking this was absolutely no conspiracy at all. Sounds exactly like how cases are carried out and prosecuted thousands and thousands of times each year. But what do I know? I guess I need to watch some of those cop shows.
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No one is saying anyone is getting rich off this.

A home poker game is a victimless crime, and law enforcement invaded his home and stole thousands of dollars from from the OP. And it's allowed, thanks to civil asset forfeiture laws. Departments get to keep most of the money, and it becomes a slush fund. Maybe they'll buy equipment or pay for training. Or, maybe they'll use the money for a Disney business seminar, or a trip to Hawaii, or a Margarita machine (these are actual examples). It's corrupt.
 
BukNaked36 said:
Keeping $12k is insane. I don't understand how that can possibly be justified. Convicted of one misdemeanor with a $101 fine, yet somehow you're out $12k.

Any word on how he got raided in the first place? I keep imagining this as one a-hole player getting in some legal trouble and turning over your game to help himself out. Maybe I've watched too many cop shows.
Click to expand...

No, but I remember the young masked officer who was collecting my statement and issuing me the ticket saying a couple things.

1. "Don't ask me about the poker stuff, I only work narcotics" (no drugs found or seized though)
2. "I'm sorry man, this is a Virginia Beach city thing"

I am guessing the city got the wild hair up their ass maybe from other games that were more nefarious to clean it up and collect what they could. Certainly there could have been some upset players that lost a lot call about the game. The game was fair and square and there a couple other PCF'ers on here who have played in the game as well. It was a fun group of players 90% of the time we played. It was a good environment, good poker, good action, lots of laughs, and tons more fun than playing at any casino in my personal experience.
 
Beakertwang said:
No one is saying anyone is getting rich off this.

A home poker game is a victimless crime, and law enforcement invaded his home and stole thousands of dollars from from the OP. And it's allowed, thanks to civil asset forfeiture laws. Departments get to keep most of the money, and it becomes a slush fund. Maybe they'll buy equipment or pay for training. Or, maybe they'll use the money for a Disney business seminar, or a trip to Hawaii, or a Margarita machine (these are actual examples). It's corrupt.
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Just like drugs are “victimless”...until they aren’t.

Civil asset forfeiture is a great thing. Each state is different, but in my state (Missouri), all civil forfeiture goes to the school system. Not one penny to the departments. No early retirements for the popo. And no margarita machines.

What’s corrupt is letting criminals keep their ill-gotten gain. I could be wrong, though. Maybe we should let criminals keep tens of thousands of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, sitting in their safe next to their government funded handout cards in their government funded homes (these are actual cases). I can cherry pick actual cases with you for as long as you like.
 
Beakertwang said:
No one is saying anyone is getting rich off this.

A home poker game is a victimless crime, and law enforcement invaded his home and stole thousands of dollars from from the OP. And it's allowed, thanks to civil asset forfeiture laws. Departments get to keep most of the money, and it becomes a slush fund. Maybe they'll buy equipment or pay for training. Or, maybe they'll use the money for a Disney business seminar, or a trip to Hawaii, or a Margarita machine (these are actual examples). It's corrupt.
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^^^ So much this...this is really the unspoken issue. Imagine those that wish to greatly reduce or take away the police's government appropriated funding as well? Can you imagine how much more Civil Asset Forfeiture opportunities will get ramped up because PD's need revenue while those laws are still on the books that allow it?!

EDIT: Missouri ain't so hot either

https://reason.com/2019/12/30/misso...m-drivers-who-they-never-charged-with-crimes/
 
timinater said:
Don’t you dare remove those evidence stickers! As you mention a pretty great souvenir, in spite of the fact this is pretty brutal all around.
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The stickers will remain! The birdcage is pretty cracked up though. It may not make it as long as the Cherry wood case.
 
daschuck77 said:
^^^ So much this...this is really the unspoken issue. Imagine those that wish to greatly reduce or take away the police's government appropriated funding as well? Can you imagine how much more Civil Asset Forfeiture opportunities will get ramped up because PD's need revenue while those laws are still on the books that allow it?!

EDIT: Missouri ain't so hot either

https://reason.com/2019/12/30/misso...m-drivers-who-they-never-charged-with-crimes/
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t you like to know the details of these cases? Care to share them? Or is it just easier to throw some generic, biased based article up?
 
DMack said:
Wouldn’t you like to know the details of these cases? Care to share them? Or is it just easier to throw some generic, biased based article up?
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Do you just not believe that it happens?

It’s pretty easy to search “civil asset forfeiture” and find dozens of stories and videos on actual cases. It basically makes traveling with any significant amount of cash an illegal behavior, and you’re more likely to have it stolen by law enforcement than by non-taxpayer funded criminals.
 
Beakertwang said:
Do you just not believe that it happens?

It’s pretty easy to search “civil asset forfeiture” and find dozens of stories and videos on actual cases. It basically makes traveling with any significant amount of cash an illegal behavior, and you’re more likely to have it stolen by law enforcement than by non-taxpayer funded criminals.
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It would be a lot easier to search to find cases where drug carriers and money embezzlers were picked off transporting their ill-gotten gain, but let’s see how many we can cherry pick to fit our agenda, right?
 
DMack said:
It would be a lot easier to search to find cases where drug carriers and money embezzlers were picked off transporting their ill-gotten gain, but let’s see how many we can cherry pick to fit our agenda, right?
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I’m not opposed to seizing money from criminals. However, the civil asset forfeiture laws are abused to take money from people who have not committed any crime. It’s theft. That’s wrong. Always. There’s an actual victim, and a perpetrator of the crime, which is, in such cases, law enforcement. And the perpetrators will not be prosecuted.
 
And for the record, I’m fine with assets being seized from criminals, as long as it’s used to pay back the victims. So if an embezzler is caught, the money goes to the person from whom the money was stolen. If someone is murdered, the money would go to the victim’s family. Not to the schools. Not to the department.
 
DMack said:
Wouldn’t you like to know the details of these cases? Care to share them? Or is it just easier to throw some generic, biased based article up?
Click to expand...

Let's try Saint Louis public radio...about as straight shooting as you can get:
https://www.kcur.org/2020-01-06/how...led-civil-asset-forfeiture-reform-in-missouri

All I am saying is Police can keep the shit they seize IF they get a FULL conviction of the original charges. OP pled down for a misdemeanor and still lost all of his money. Money that had nothing to do with the game. No Drugs, No illegal weapons, nothing but poker going on amongst a core group of players that mostly are friends. It was a bad seizure.

Missouri is certainly a far more decent state in the handling of civil asset forfeiture while Virginia has gotten out of control. Kudos to your state as some other states simply allow departments to keep some or all of the property and cash seized. I would say that your state could lead the way.

The nuance here is that some states in the US are reasonable and others are leaning heavily on this method to generate lots of revenue. Hopefully you will accept the source as legit and not biased although it does try to quantify state by state and grade them on their Civil Asset Forfeiture Laws and expose a common theme among states that need reform.

https://ij.org/pfp-state-pages/pfp-missouri/

1609446760924.png


https://ij.org/pfp-state-pages/pfp-virginia/

1609446736057.png
 
Beakertwang said:
I’m not opposed to seizing money from criminals. However, the civil asset forfeiture laws are abused to take money from people who have not committed any crime. It’s theft. That’s wrong. Always. There’s an actual victim, and a perpetrator of the crime, which is, in such cases, law enforcement. And the perpetrators will not be prosecuted.
Click to expand...

Again, I can’t speak for other states, but if you can prove the money is yours and hasn’t been obtained nefariously and you’ve paid the proper taxes on it, it goes right back to the owner. Many of these cases are never “fought” because those simple measures can’t be completed.
 
Beakertwang said:
And for the record, I’m fine with assets being seized from criminals, as long as it’s used to pay back the victims. So if an embezzler is caught, the money goes to the person from whom the money was stolen. If someone is murdered, the money would go to the victim’s family. Not to the schools. Not to the department.
Click to expand...

What if the victim IS the government? There are some politicians that just love a good old tax increase. What if their tax money isn’t being collected? You wouldn’t want to keep that from them, would you?
 
DMack said:
Again, I can’t speak for other states, but if you can prove the money is yours and hasn’t been obtained nefariously and you’ve paid the proper taxes on it, it goes right back to the owner. Many of these cases are never “fought” because those simple measures can’t be completed.
Click to expand...

So...they can assume you are guilty until you prove you're innocent?
 
DMack said:
What if the victim IS the government? There are some politicians that just love a good old tax increase. What if their tax money isn’t being collected? You wouldn’t want to keep that from them, would you?
Click to expand...
Government can’t be the victim. Governments are often the perpetrators of crime.
 
Beakertwang said:
Government can’t be the victim. Governments are often the perpetrators of crime.
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Government is the victim all the time. I ASSUME you have some knowledge of the law. If not, take about 10 seconds and research to find out just how often that’s the case.
 
For you naysayers, let me ask you this:

In how many of these cases that aren’t “fought,” how many times do you think this scenario plays out:

“Sir/ma’am (don’t want to get a gender identity fight going), could you please explain why you have 1.4 million dollars of cash in the back of this truck?”

“Oh, wow, I didn’t know that was there. I’m just driving this truck across country for a friend that I can’t remember his/her name. That money isn’t mine.”

“Have your friend contactact is to get that money back”

“I definitely will do that, officer.”

And guess what, nobody is ever heard from again. The police then “steal” the money to fund Disney trips, lavish bling purchases, and early retirements. Quite simple.
 

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