Tourney What to do.

Coyotesetter

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Recently at a player dealt tourney we had this situation come up. Pre flop there is a bet and four calls including the small and big blind. Flop comes, first two players check, next player bets, small blind folds and the dealer scoops both the small and big blinds cards up and they go into the muck.
Obviously, big blind is upset and calls for a mis deal. Dealer says she thought big blind folded too. People debate whether to play on or declare a mis deal. I ruled that play should continue and big blinds hand is dead.
I have seen the small blinds hand get scooped many times over the years but never the big blind. I do not think the dealer did this with any malice so let's rule that out and say this was just an error. Thoughts?
 

Al Azouri

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Were the cards retrievable from the muck?
If this was a home game, I'd have the big blind tell someone not in the hand what he had and if those cards were easily retrievable (especially if they were near each other in the muck) I would let the hand continue. I'm not sure what the proper casino ruling would be in this situation.
 

BGinGA

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^^ @Legend5555 is correct. And since significant action has already occurred, the hand must be played to completion (no misdeal).

Also a good reason why dealers should never 'scoop up' a hand that has not been clearly physically folded or discarded. Not sure? Ask.
 

DoubleEagle

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From TDA Rule 65: Accidentally Killed / Fouled / Exposed Hands

A: Players must protect their hands at all times, including at showdown while waiting for hands to be read. If the dealer kills a hand by mistake or if in TDs judgement a hand is fouled and cannot be identified to 100% certainty, the player has no redress and is not entitled to a refund of called bets. If the player initiated a bet or raise and hasn’t been called, the uncalled amount will be returned.
 

DoubleEagle

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I learned this the hard way many years ago. While playing in casino, I was sitting in the 1 seat next to the dealer. My cards were in front of my stack, unprotected. There was a bet to me on the river. The dealer thought I had folded and scooped my cards into the muck. One and only one time that will ever happen. Protect your hand by capping your cards.
 

Kid_Eastwood

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You should Estelle Denis. :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:


As said above, BB hand is dead.
 
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aaronroch

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With even moderately experienced players, obviously all the above is “correct”.

I’ll just call out that this isn’t always the case. I sometimes play with friends who are just learning poker. Inexperienced players + inexperienced dealer = I choose to do some things differently. For example, the dealer doesn’t scoop cards: players place their own cards into the pot to fold. In this case we’d have gone digging in the muck.
 

Poker Zombie

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With even moderately experienced players, obviously all the above is “correct”.

I’ll just call out that this isn’t always the case. I sometimes play with friends who are just learning poker. Inexperienced players + inexperienced dealer = I choose to do some things differently. For example, the dealer doesn’t scoop cards: players place their own cards into the pot to fold. In this case we’d have gone digging in the muck.
Sadly, this isn't good.
  • You violate the integrity of the player's folds by looking at them.
  • You protect bad habits that may sting them down the road (for far greater money).
  • Player may misrepresent their hand and get better cards from the muck.
If the cards are clearly salvageable, then fine. But never "dig" in the muck. best to learn at home, among friends, for less money than to learn a hard lesson later in life. Inexperienced players need to learn. Don't coddle them with rule exceptions.
 

aaronroch

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Well, in this example you are probably right.

But I’ll maintain that a strict application of TDA rules (which are, after all, written with pro dealers in mind) is not automatically the best answer for every home game. Sometimes it depends on the game and the players involved.
 
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