Tourney Help me design this crazy, crazy tourney. (1 Viewer)

[Larold]

Ok. I'm going to ask you to refrain from making value judgements, criticizing, or nay-saying. This is what it is. I would love some help with designing a structure that could work.

=======
TL;DR - these are all non-negotiable:

9-10 hours including one dinner break and other smaller breaks
600k starting stack, likely 700k
T25-T50 starting blinds (Yes, that's 14,000 BB starting stack!! )
15-25 casual players
Smooth as possible blind increases
Everyone gets to play at least 5 hours no matter how bad the cards are
Want to heavily incentivize rebuys and add-ons through pricing and any other methods you can think of
======

A buddy of mine saw my new set of chips and wants me to do a tourney at his place. His desires are a bit challenging, but let's give it a try. This could be a lot of fun. He absolutely doesn't want a cash game.

He wants what is effectively an uber-deep stack tournament with rebuys and addons, and lots of flash. (Big chip piles, splashy big pots, big numbers, lots of colors, really big starting stacks, and a full day of action action action.)

He wants it to be a full-day event; he's thinking 9-10 hours including breaks. I expect 15-25 in the field, almost all casual / amateur, but leaning toward the loose-aggressive side. A couple of good table captains / experienced dealers will be in the mix to help keep the action (and crazy amount of chip counting) flowing. (I offered to deal & not play.)

Okay, here's where it gets interesting. He's played in my tourneys before and really wants a T25-based tourney (like I usually do), starting blinds at 25-50. He's been burned a couple of times with big blind increases and begged me to make increases as smooth as possible.

And he wants 700k starting stacks. (700 is a special number for him.)

He's not budging on starting stack, starting blinds, or time window. (At this point I recommended 600k with 100k on-time bonus.). I also asked him, "If someone's really unlucky and keeps busting, how long do you want them to be guaranteed able to play?" Five. hours. (I think 'cuz he's got 3-4 people coming from over three hours away.)

He likes the idea of unlimited rebuys for a few hours and add-ons and getting a ton of chips in play. I think his crowd likes to feel like on-TV players at one of the big events. He's flexible on $$ amount for buy-in / rebuy / add-on; he just wants amounts that encourage action.

After explaining three ante options (everyone antes each hand, big blind ante, or small blind ante), he was skeptical about any of them but may reconsider. I told him with the amount of chips in play after rebuys and add-ons, we'd certainly need to find ways to push the action to finish in the 9-10 hour window. (Especially given that some of that time is breaks.)

After I told him we'd need as much play time as possible, I got him sold on the idea of starting just after lunch and going until 10-11pm, with a dinner break and other "small" breaks.

Whew. Okay. My new chip set is ginormous, so chip counts and denominations won't be a problem. Would anyone like to take a stab at setting up a structure, either with or without Big Blind Ante or Small Blind Ante? (individual ante won't work w/ this crowd.) And I would appreciate advice on buy-in / rebuy / add-on $ prices to stimulate play but allow this sucker to finish in (10 - breaks) hours.

Please, no sarcasm. Let's see if we can come up with something. Bonus points for no antes, but I think we're gonna' need them.

Thanks in advance!

 

[GreekRedEye]

This is the set you are working with, right? Just for folks to get a sense of how many chip colors they have to work with. No denoms on chips, right?
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/my-crazy-tina-adventure.115442/

One option to get to $700k and also help keep players in the game is to give folks a stack of say, $350k plus a rebuy chip worth $350k that they are not allowed to play, unless they bust out and then they can cash it in for a new stack. And then at the appointed time (maybe at 5 hours) anyone who still has a rebuy chip can cash it in to get the equivalent in chips, as effectively an add-on at that point (when the blinds will be much higher).

I don't know how you ensure that no one busts out before 5 hours. Multiple rebuys will help, but you can't fix someone who goes all in on every hand. Unless you have a fixed limit component to the tourney (maybe in the first half). But this is all beyond my experience.

I will let others propose a blinds/ante schedule. I'm curious to see how this thing shakes out.

 

[Larold]

This is the set you are working with, right? Just for folks to get a sense of how many chip colors they have to work with. No denoms on chips, right?
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/my-crazy-tina-adventure.115442/

One option to get to $700k and also help keep players in the game is to give folks a stack of say, $350k plus a rebuy chip worth $350k that they are not allowed to play, unless they bust out and then they can cash it in for a new stack. And then at the appointed time (maybe at 5 hours) anyone who still has a rebuy chip can cash it in to get the equivalent in chips, as effectively an add-on at that point (when the blinds will be much higher).

I don't know how you ensure that no one busts out before 5 hours. Multiple rebuys will help, but you can't fix someone who goes all in on every hand. Unless you have a fixed limit component to the tourney (maybe in the first half). But this is all beyond my experience.

I will let others propose a blinds/ante schedule. I'm curious to see how this thing shakes out.

Yup - that's the set. Correct - no chip denoms. 500x green and black, 400x red and blue, 300x white, orange, yellow, purple, 200x pink, grey, teal, violet, forest green, brown. I whipped up a starting stack according to his wishes (lots of chips, lots of colors) that happens to all fit in a 100-chip rack: (This is way too many chips for tourneys I host, but I'm rolling with it):

600k starting stack (+ 100k on-time bonus)
20x green for 500
20x black for 2,000
15x purple for 7,500
15x yellow for 15,000
15x ?? for 75,000 <-- 5k chip (must be red or blue, unless <= 20 players)
10x ?? for 250,000 <-- 25k chip
5x ?? for 250,000 <-- 50k chip
1x ?? for 100,000 <-- 100k chip (on-time bonus)

I don't think we need to account for someone busting / all-in every hand; I think he just wants folks that have bad runs to be able to keep playing. Unlimited rebuys for the 5-hour period might work. Perhaps cost of each rebuy goes up by a bit.

Great idea on the rebuy chip that doesn't play - I'll see if we can get to a nice big stack of chips that totals 350k. Although I have a hunch he may want these grandiose starting stacks (piles) of 700k. I'll get back to you.

 

[TomC727]

As a local, this tournament sounds like a good time.

 

[buzzmonkey]

Ok, let's assume 25 players at 700k each with an assumed 2.5 rebuys per person. That gets us to 43.75 million on the table. The game should max out when the big blind is around 2.2 million. So you need to get from a big blind of 50 to a big blind of 2.2m in under 10 hours.

You should definitely have an ante, and with that many chips on the table a BBA is probably the only way to keep the game moving at a reasonable pace. You can reasonably double some of the early blinds without putting anyone in jeopardy.

With 15 minutes levels plus added breaks you could get this in in around 10 hours.

25/50
50/100
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12,000
8,000/16,000
10,000/20,000
15,000/30,000
20,000/40,000
30,000/60,000
40,000/80,000
60,000/120,000
80,000/160,000
100,000/200,000
150,000/300,000
200,000/400,000
300,000/600,000
400,000/800,000
600,000/1.2m
800,000/1.6m
1m/2m
1.5m/3m

Now if anyone needs me, I'm going to go give my toaster a bath.

 

[indy18]

Structure is gonna be a bear to go from 25/50 starting to 875k BB (projected end at 25*700k)

Looks like about 25 levels increasing 50% each level at 20 minutes each is 8 hours 20 minutes.

That's pure math increases so needs some detail study to figure out real levels.

(Pipped by the detail study!)

Of course you don't go under 100 BB from the starting stack until 4 hours in. So a lot of hands that just don't matter.

 

[Larold]

Yup - that's the set. Correct - no chip denoms. 500x green and black, 400x red and blue, 300x white, orange, yellow, purple, 200x pink, grey, teal, violet, forest green, brown.

Great idea on the rebuy chip that doesn't play - I'll see if we can get to a nice big stack of chips that totals 350k.

As a local, this tournament sounds like a good time.

I will absolutely keep you in mind! My crowd tends to live in the NW corridor - the first few burbs NW of O'Hare.

 

[GreekRedEye]

Glad @buzzmonkey did the blinds math. I took a stab an easier part of the puzzle: starting stacks. Two options below. Ton of chips on the table, but that's what you are going for. I think I see plaques in the Tina box you got. If not denominated, those could be the prepaid rebuy. Good luck!

Entrants =	25
	Denom	# of chips	value	Chips Needed	Max available
Green	25	20	500	500	500
Black	100	20	2000	500	500
Purple	500	9	4500	225	300
Blue	1000	13	13000	325	400
Red	5000	11	55000	275	400
Yellow or Orange	25000	9	225000	225	300
White	100000	4	400000	100	300
		86	700000
	Denom	# of chips	value	Chips Needed	Max available
Green	25	12	300	300	500
Black	100	12	1200	300	500
Purple	500	5	2500	125	300
Blue	1000	16	16000	400	400
Red	5000	11	55000	275	400
Yellow or Orange	25000	9	225000	225	300
White	100000	4	400000	100	300
		69	700000

 

[Larold]

Ok, let's assume 25 players at 700k each with an assumed 2.5 rebuys per person. That gets us to 43.75 million on the table. The game should max out when the big blind is around 2.2 million. So you need to get from a big blind of 50 to a big blind of 2.2m in under 10 hours.

You should definitely have an antenna, and with that many chips on the table a BBA is probably the only way to keep the game moving at a reasonable pace. You can reasonably double some of the early blinds without putting anyone in jeopardy.

With 15 minutes levels plus added breaks you could get this in in around 10 hours.

25/50
50/100
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12,000
8,000/16,000
10,000/20,000
15,000/30,000
20,000/40,000
30,000/60,000
40,000/80,000
60,000/120,000
80,000/160,000
100,000/200,000
150,000/300,000
200,000/400,000
300,000/600,000
400,000/800,000
600,000/1.2m
800,000/1.6m
1m/2m

Now if anyone needs me, I'm going to go give my toaster a bath.

I can't thank you enough for taking my post seriously and offering something to work with. I'm going to cut-paste this into a working area and start molding it with some breaks and antes. You rock - thanks again.

 

[Larold]

I think I see plaques in the Tina box you got. If not denominated, those could be the prepaid rebuy.

Good eye on the picture. Unfortunately those will be unavailable as they are plaques that Matt (my designer) asked to have me re-ship; he included them in my Tina shipment.

 

[thetikiking]

Just checking in to say this is insane, and sounds super fun. Please share pics when this ship sails.

 

[Larold]

Just checking in to say this is insane, and sounds super fun. Please share pics when this ship sails.

My favorite part will be deciding what colors I want for 500k and 1M chips. Will definitely take pics.

 

[Larold]

I've gotten some great feedback, but something we haven't talked about yet.

What should buy-in / re-buys / add-on cost to incentivize?

This crowd is happy plunking down a total of $50-$100+ for a day of poker. So maybe $30 for buy-in and $20 for rebuys / add-ons ? Whatever you all think will get chips into the field.

 

[Larold]

Structure is gonna be a bear to go from 25/50 starting to 875k BB (projected end at 25*700k)

Looks like about 25 levels increasing 50% each level at 20 minutes each is 8 hours 20 minutes.

That's pure math increases so needs some detail study to figure out real levels.

(Pipped by the detail study!)

Of course you don't go under 100 BB from the starting stack until 4 hours in. So a lot of hands that just don't matter.

You'd be amazed at the action in the first phase. This is a crowd that likes to play a ton of hands to the river when the blinds are super cheap. You'll regularly see raised family pots on the flop and 5 to the river, with action on every round and an all-in at least once every 5-10 minutes, if not more. Pots in the rebuy phase of this crowd, especially with deep stacks, can go 400-500 BB. Up until rebuys end, you're going to see a showdown 9 out of 10 times. Big swings. A lot of relevant movement of chips. And this is WITHOUT booze. You should see 'em buzzed... your kings will die to 84o half the time.

 

[Sparkynutz]

Sounds like a mess and a nightmare.
Hope there's cheat sheets everywhere saying what denom is what. Moving all those chips towards the end every hand is gonna suck and take up a lot of time too I bet.
My guys want the exact opposite. Less chips, faster tournament. Usually chop at 2-3 guys and get the next game going.

 

[indy18]

You'd be amazed at the action in the first phase. This is a crowd that likes to play a ton of hands to the river when the blinds are super cheap. You'll regularly see raised family pots on the flop and 5 to the river, with action on every round and an all-in at least once every 5-10 minutes, if not more. Pots in the rebuy phase of this crowd, especially with deep stacks, can go 400-500 BB. Up until rebuys end, you're going to see a showdown 9 out of 10 times. Big swings. A lot of relevant movement of chips. And this is WITHOUT booze. You should see 'em buzzed... your kings will die to 84o half the time.

Good stuff!

In this case I would definitely use @GreekRedEye 's idea and use a rebuy chip to split to 350k starting and cash it in at around lvl 11.

Offers some mitigation of the early bust out and the number of chips flying around at low blinds.

 

[BGinGA]

So.....

700k starting stacks for 15-25 players, starting at 25/50 blinds with unlimited re-buys for 5 hours, and lasting for 10 hours with breaks.

Certainly appears to be do-able.

700k starting stacks:
20 x T25
20 x T00
15 x T500
20 x T1000
14 x T5000
8 x T25000
4 x T100000
--------------
100 chips = 700,000

Personally, I'd set it up as a $40 buy-in for 700k, with unlimited 400k re-buys for $20 for the first 5 hours and an optional 200k add-on for $10 at the end of the re-buy period.

Use all T25000 chips for re-buys and add-ons, as there will be plenty of lower denoms in play to make change.

For structure, go with 20-minute blind levels and aggressive 60% average increases (50%-100%) for the first 5 hours, and then use slower 40% average increases (33%-50%) for the remainder of the event after dinner. Adding a BBA will keep things moving, but isn't absolutely necessary.

~ 20-minute levels with BBA
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75 150
L4 125 250
~ 10-minute break, remove T25 chips
L5 200 400
L6 300 600
L7 500 1000
L8 800 1600
L9 1200 2400
~ 10-minute break, remove T100/T500 chips
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000
L12 5000 10000
L13 8000 16000
L14 12000 24000
~ 10-minute break, remove T1000 chips
~ End re-buys, issue optional add-ons
~ 60 minute dinner break
L15 20,000 40,000
L16 30,000 60,000
L17 40,000 80,000
L18 60,000 12,0000
L19 80,000 16,0000
~ 10 minute break, remove T5000 chips
L20 100,000 200,000
L21 150,000 300,000
L22 200,000 400,000
L23 250,000 500,000
~ 10 minute break, remove T25000 chips
L24 300,000 600,000
L25 400,000 800,000
L26 500,000 1,000,000
L27 700,000 1,400,000

Event should end no later than L26 with 25 players, even with lots of re-buys/add-ons. Will likely end no later than L23 with just 15 players and fewer re-buys/add-ons. That works out to between 9:20 and 10:30 including the breaks for color-ups and dinner.

Use T5000 chips to color-up the T25, T100, and T500s. Use T25000 chips to color-up the T1000s, and use T100k chips to color-up the T5000s (and T25000s if necessary).

 

[Larold]

So.....

700k starting stacks for 15-25 players, starting at 25/50 blinds with unlimited re-buys for 5 hours, and lasting for 10 hours with breaks.

Certainly appears to be do-able.

700k starting stacks:
20 x T25
20 x T00
15 x T500
20 x T1000
14 x T5000
8 x T25000
4 x T100000
--------------
100 chips = 700,000

Personally, I'd set it up as a $40 buy-in for 700k, with unlimited 400k re-buys for $20 for the first 5 hours and an optional 200k add-on for $10 at the end of the re-buy period.

Use all T25000 chips for re-buys and add-ons, as there will be plenty of lower denoms in play to make change.

For structure, go with 20-minute blind levels and aggressive 60% average increases (50%-100%) for the first 5 hours, and then use slower 40% average increases (33%-50%) for the remainder of the event after dinner. Adding a BBA will keep things moving, but isn't absolutely necessary.

~ 20-minute levels with BBA
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75 150
L4 125 250
~ 10-minute break, remove T25 chips
L5 200 400
L6 300 600
L7 500 1000
L8 800 1600
L9 1200 2400
~ 10-minute break, remove T100/T500 chips
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000
L12 5000 10000
L13 8000 16000
L14 12000 24000
~ 10-minute break, remove T1000 chips
~ End re-buys, issue optional add-ons
~ 60 minute dinner break
L15 20,000 40,000
L16 30,000 60,000
L17 40,000 80,000
L18 60,000 12,0000
L19 80,000 16,0000
~ 10 minute break, remove T5000 chips
L20 100,000 200,000
L21 150,000 300,000
L22 200,000 400,000
L23 250,000 500,000
~ 10 minute break, remove T25000 chips
L24 300,000 600,000
L25 400,000 800,000
L26 500,000 1,000,000
L27 700,000 1,400,000

Event should end no later than L26 with 25 players, even with lots of re-buys/add-ons. Will likely end no later than L23 with just 15 players and fewer re-buys/add-ons. That works out to between 9:20 and 10:30 including the breaks for color-ups and dinner.

Use T5000 chips to color-up the T25, T100, and T500s. Use T25000 chips to color-up the T1000s, and use T100k chips to color-up the T5000s (and T25000s if necessary).

I love how one can instantly tell this isn't your first rodeo. Thanks for all of this info, but in particular the suggestions for $$ sizing.

What would you advise be the condition on being able to make rebuys as enticing as possible while remaining reasonable? Could it be done where you only need < X chips in your stack (as opposed to busting out)? Would you ever suggest a choice: 400k rebuy for $20 or 800k for say $35?

 

[indy18]

So.....

700k starting stacks for 15-25 players, starting at 25/50 blinds with unlimited re-buys for 5 hours, and lasting for 10 hours with breaks.

Certainly appears to be do-able.

700k starting stacks:
20 x T25
20 x T00
15 x T500
20 x T1000
14 x T5000
8 x T25000
4 x T100000
--------------
100 chips = 700,000

Personally, I'd set it up as a $40 buy-in for 700k, with unlimited 400k re-buys for $20 for the first 5 hours and an optional 200k add-on for $10 at the end of the re-buy period.

Use all T25000 chips for re-buys and add-ons, as there will be plenty of lower denoms in play to make change.

For structure, go with 20-minute blind levels and aggressive 60% average increases (50%-100%) for the first 5 hours, and then use slower 40% average increases (33%-50%) for the remainder of the event after dinner. Adding a BBA will keep things moving, but isn't absolutely necessary.

~ 20-minute levels with BBA
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75 150
L4 125 250
~ 10-minute break, remove T25 chips
L5 200 400
L6 300 600
L7 500 1000
L8 800 1600
L9 1200 2400
~ 10-minute break, remove T100/T500 chips
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000
L12 5000 10000
L13 8000 16000
L14 12000 24000
~ 10-minute break, remove T1000 chips
~ End re-buys, issue optional add-ons
~ 60 minute dinner break
L15 20,000 40,000
L16 30,000 60,000
L17 40,000 80,000
L18 60,000 12,0000
L19 80,000 16,0000
~ 10 minute break, remove T5000 chips
L20 100,000 200,000
L21 150,000 300,000
L22 200,000 400,000
L23 250,000 500,000
~ 10 minute break, remove T25000 chips
L24 300,000 600,000
L25 400,000 800,000
L26 500,000 1,000,000
L27 700,000 1,400,000

Event should end no later than L26 with 25 players, even with lots of re-buys/add-ons. Will likely end no later than L23 with just 15 players and fewer re-buys/add-ons. That works out to between 9:20 and 10:30 including the breaks for color-ups and dinner.

Use T5000 chips to color-up the T25, T100, and T500s. Use T25000 chips to color-up the T1000s, and use T100k chips to color-up the T5000s (and T25000s if necessary).

I love the absurdity of a level setup that includes removing the T25k chips and the idea of getting a full rack of chips as a starting stack.

Sounds like a good time.

 

[BGinGA]

What would you advise be the condition on being able to make rebuys as enticing as possible while remaining reasonable? Could it be done where you only need < X chips in your stack (as opposed to busting out)? Would you ever suggest a choice: 400k rebuy for $20 or 800k for say $35?

You could allow re-buys when a player's stack is below a certain threshold (say 50%), or allow multiple purchases of half-stack re-buys if felted.

But reduced cost is by far the most effective way to provide incentives for re-buys.

For example, a $40 starting stack with cheap $5 full-stack re-buys nearly guarantees multiple re-buys, assuming that players actually get busted -- which is much more likely to occur with smaller starting stacks than with huge numbers of initial chips in play.

I see the large starting stack size as a major deterrent to having a large (or even significant) number of re-buys in your proposed event.

 

[Larold]

I see the large starting stack size as a major deterrent to having a large (or even significant) number of re-buys in your proposed event.

Excellent point. I'm going to ask the host which they prefer - monster (lots of chips and colors) starting stacks OR lots of rebuys.