Tourney Changing Tournament Structure, What to Expect? (1 Viewer)

[emunster18]

My normal quarterly tournament has been run with the following structure for a couple years now.
2TT - 16-20 players
$50 Buy-in
T100 - $40k starting stack (200bb)
Rebuys until first break (90 mins)
$20 Add-on at break

We usually have 6-10 rebuys and 6ish add-ons.

Next tournament, I am trying with changing the structure to a $100 buy-in deep stack freeze out.

$100 Buy-in
$80k starting stack (400bb)
Freeze out

With the total chips in play being just a little more than my 40k game, I'm assuming that it will not run that much longer.

Besides eliminating the early splashy play, what else should I be expecting with the change to a deepstack freeze out? Am I missing any glaring problems that I may run into?

 

[merkong]

Well, there’s always the AA cracked on the first hand scenario and someone deciding to upper deck your toilet.

Freeze Outs are cool. If you only play quarterly though, somewhere in between the two philosophies is worth tinkering with on paper.

 

[emunster18]

What would be something in between?

I feel like the game changes when the rebuy period ends. In the first 90 minutes the play is really loose. Anyone who gets stacked is rebuying. Then no one gets knocked out for the next 60ish minutes, then the blinds start to catch up and we progress through the night.

Could I make a ruling, rebuys available on bad beats only?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

What would be something in between?

I feel like the game changes when the rebuy period ends. In the first 90 minutes the play is really loose. Anyone who gets stacked is rebuying. Then no one gets knocked out for the next 60ish minutes, then the blinds start to catch up and we progress through the night.

Could I make a ruling, rebuys available on bad beats only?

I would not advise it. Then you're spending time doing math to see who was ahead when the money went it. AAds vs a QJT all hearts and money goes in against pocket KK with a heart, does that count as AA losing to KK? Just too much grey area for us.

 

[emunster18]

I agree with that sentiment. We play a cash game monthly, capped at 10 players and this 2TT quarterly. The only players I would be worried about getting stacked too quickly are a couple of my regulars cash game players. The others that come to the tournament are generally pretty tight.

I'll advertise this as a different format and make sure everyone knows well in advance that there are no rebuys.

I assume with the deep stack format that players would understand that you can be patient and not have to make a move early, but we all know what happens when you assume...

 

[Taghkanic]

Next tournament, I am trying with changing the structure to a $100 buy-in deep stack freeze out.

$100 Buy-in
$80k starting stack (400bb)
Freeze out

Could you tell us more about the rationale for this change?

Was there a specific game dynamic that prompted this change? Or that you wanted to up the stakes, but don’t think your players will like it unless they get double the chips? Or other considerations?

From what I understand, the buy-ins and the starting stack depths are double your previous scheme, with no rebuys or add-ons.

Making it a freezeout and eliminating the add-on may make for a less social game, in that you are going to have more situations where someone has to leave much earlier than they are used to. If a cooler happens early, a reg might only get 15-20 minutes of play for the night.

I found that having a modest add-on in my tourneys helped extend players’ nights without skewing things too much... and that player happiness depended in large part on how long they got to play. The worse players burn out faster if they are not getting much poker in.

In any case 400bb is an exceptionally large starting stack, unless you are using very quick rounds and/or fast blind escalation. It could lead to more people lasting longer... But coolers still happen.

Depending on the reasons behind the idea, you might want to consider some less extreme compromise—for example, bumping the buy-in to $80, giving people 50K starting stacks, and allowing only one rebuy.

 

[BKisback]

^this - raise the buyin a bit and allow a single rebuy/re-entry/addon or what have you. I think 200BB is plenty for most any reasonable structure.

 

[emunster18]

The rationale for the change is to try something new and see if the group likes it. At the last tournament, we had 11 or 12 rebuys, but 9 of those came from 3 players. And those 3 were half of the 6 add-ons as well.

I know that some of my players come with and are comfortable losing 1 buy-in, while others are comfortable losing 5x or more.

Thanks for the idea offering a single re-buy and continuing to offer the add-on. That balance may temper some of the wild play we have had early in other tournaments.

 

[emunster18]

How about this? Including some additional details on blinds etc.

2TT - 18 max
T100
100/200 Starting Blinds, no BBA (group doesn't like them)
20 min levels, late levels 15 mins, estimated time 5-6 hrs

$80 buy-in
60k - 300bb starting stack
1 rebuy available
Add-on @ 1st break $20 (25k or 20bb at that point in the tourney)

 

[chopper]

FWIW from me - @grantc54 first introduced me to the one re-buy/add-on with bonus if unused, included in your buy-in. (Then go freeze out or re-entry, with limits) This works great!

 

[emunster18]

FWIW from me - @grantc54 first introduced me to the one re-buy/add-on with bonus if unused, included in your buy-in. (Then go freeze out or re-entry, with limits) This works great!

Bonus if unused? Please elaborate.

 

[chopper]

Bonus if unused? Please elaborate.

Right. At determined level, if you still have your re-buy chip it turns into an add-on chip. Often the add-on is worth a little more than the re/buy.

 

[emunster18]

So, if you don't rebuy in the initial period, it turns into a free add-on? Or an opportunity to buy and add-on?

 

[chopper]

So, if you don't rebuy in the initial period, it turns into a free add-on? Or an opportunity to buy and add-on?

Turns into an add-on.
So for example your buy-in gets you: 30K starting stack, a 30K re-buy if you bust out before determined level, if you don’t use re-buy before said level then it becomes a 35K add-on.
(Some will allow a re-entry if one busts out again and will give you 60K for the re-entry purchase)

I’m now in way over my head on this and hope some TDs chime in!

 

[emunster18]

Turns into an add-on.
So for example your buy-in gets you: 30K starting stack, a 30K re-buy if you bust out before determined level, if you don’t use re-buy before said level then it becomes a 35K add-on.
(Some will allow a re-entry if one busts out again and will give you 60K for the re-entry purchase)

I’m now in way over my head on this and hope some TDs chime in!

This just confused me more...

Your add-on gets you more chips than a full rebuy?

 

[chopper]

This just confused me more...

Your add-on gets you more chips than a full rebuy?

Yes, a little incentive to make it to add-on. And note the difference between re-buy and re-entry. I personally don’t like giving a re-entry. I guess basically your buy-in is split into two.

C’mon TDs help me out here

 

[thePokerClub]

You don't play frequently, so if you are going to move away from rebuys and add-on to a full blown freeze out, you should make the buy-in larger so that you ensure the prize pool is at least as much as what you were paying out before - and ideally more.

Would not be ideal for the total prize pool to end up being less, but perhaps you have already run your calculations on that when considering your freezeout buy-in amount.

 

[emunster18]

Funny enough, I was talking about that with Mrs. Emunster earlier today. Typical prize pool for the $50 game was $1,200-$1,400 after all the rebuys and add ons.

If we shift to an $80 buy-in with a single rebuy available, the total prize pool should end up being closer to $1,600-$1,800.