Tourney HORSE Limit Tournament Structure (2 Viewers)

[Aeternus]

Hi everyone, I'm running a HORSE limit tournament next week and was trying to nail down the structure and starting stacks. Haven't ran a limit tournament before, just regular NLH so I'm a little unsure, and most structures online are a bit different in goals.

I was thinking of doing a dealer button ante of one small bet so I don't have to deal with getting an ante from every player. And I was thinking of just rotating game each rotation around the table so I don't have to deal with setting up a structure taking the different games into account. I don't see many limit games being run like this but it feels like it makes more sense for a home tournament. Is this a terribly bad idea for reasons I am missing?

I expect to be running 2 tables with likely 24-30 total buy ins including rebuys, aiming for around a 8-10 hour tournament including a dinner break.

Here's what I have now. Trying to strike a balance for decent playability for a long time by not starting super deep stacked, but not getting people super short stacked for a long time too. With ~30 buy ins I would expect it to end around level 12. With longer levels so the different games can get in a little more play at all the levels.

150k Starting Stack T1000
10 1k
8 5k
4 25k
40 Minute Levels

Start Time | End Time | Duration | Level | Small Blind / Bring In | Small Bet / button ante | Big Bet
12:00 PM 12:40 PM 40m 1 1K 2K 4K
12:40 PM 1:20 PM 40m 2 2K 3K 6K
1:20 PM 2:00 PM 40m 3 2K 5K 10K
2:00 PM 2:15 PM 15m Break
2:15 PM 2:53 PM 40m 4 3K 5K 10K
2:55 PM 3:35 PM 40m 5 3K 6K 12K
3:35 PM 4:15 PM 40m 6 4K 8K 16K
4:15 PM 4:30 PM 15m Break
4:30 PM 5:10 PM 40m 7 5K 10K 20K
5:10 PM 5:50 PM 40m 8 6K 12K 24K
5:50 PM 6:30 PM 40m 9 10K 15K 30K
6:30 PM 7:00 PM 30m Break
7:20 PM 8:00 PM 40m 10 10K 20K 40K
8:00 PM 8:40 PM 40m 11 10K 25K 50K
8:40 PM 9:20 PM 40m 12 15K 30K 60K
9:20 PM 9:35 PM 15m Break
9:35 PM 10:15 PM 40m 13 20K 40K 80K
10:15 PM 10:55 PM 40m 14 30K 50K 100K
10:55 PM 11:35 PM 40m 15 30K 60K 120K

 

[TheRealStephen12]

Preface: I’ve never played a HORSE Tournament, but have looked at the WSOP stud structures from 2025 and analyzed stud structures In another thread. Ending at limits of 30K/60K with 4.5M chips in play is way too early; you’ll likely be playing until the limits are 5-10x that number. You need shorter levels and faster increases to accommodate the tournament in that time frame. With the following played with 30 minute blind levels, you should get done around level 14-16.

(Stud) Ante/Bring-In/Completion and S.Bet/B. Bet -
(Flop) SB/S. Bet/B. Bet

1K/1K/3K/6K - 1K/3K/6K
1K/1K/4K/8K - 2K/4K/8K
1K/1K/5K/10K - 2K/5K/10K
1K/2K/6K/12K - 3K/6K/12K
Break
2K/2K/8K/16K - 4K/8K/16K
2K/3K/10K/20K - 5K/10K/20K
3K/5K/15K/30K - 5K/15K/30K
5K/5K/20K/40K - 10K/20K/40K
Break - Color Up 1K
5K/10K/30K/60K - 15K/30K/60K
10K/10K/40K/80K - 20K/40K/80K
10K/15K/60K/120K - 30K/60K/120K
15K/20K/80K/160K - 40K/80K/160K
Break - Color Up T5K
25K/25K/100K/200K - 50K/100K/200K
25K/50K/150K/300K - 75K/150K/300K
50K/50K/200K/400K - 100K/200K/400K
50K/75K/300K/600K - 150K/300K/600K

Let me know if you use this and how it goes!

 

[Aeternus]

My table got messed up in the main post, after working fine in the preview, so edited to plaintext.

Yeah, appreciate the feedback, I was using some rule of thumbs for Holdem that I think don't fit as well here. I'm surprised it has such an impact as to increase expected ending BB by 5-10x though! You wouldn't expect it to end until the big bet is at least 1/15th of the chips at the table?

I was hoping that to keep it simpler for players who are learning HORSE tournaments and newer to limit, to just stick to a dealer BTN ante and keep the small blind=bring in, and big blind = small bet = BTN ante. That way I could keep a consistent ante rule for every game rather than changing it.

But it seems like from what I am seeing such a bring in would be too large, and total ante'd chips too little... So maybe I need to re-examine that as well

 

[TheRealStephen12]

My table got messed up in the main post, after working fine in the preview, so edited to plaintext.

Yeah, appreciate the feedback, I was using some rule of thumbs for Holdem that I think don't fit as well here. I'm surprised it has such an impact as to increase expected ending BB by 5-10x though! You wouldn't expect it to end until the big bet is at least 1/15th of the chips at the table?

Likely not. Rule of thumb is Total chips/20 = ending big blind, but since limit plays ~4x smaller, it would be a smaller number. Since there’s not many hands/orbit, the limits might get fairly high before the tournament ends.

I was hoping that to keep it simpler for players who are learning HORSE tournaments and newer to limit, to just stick to a dealer BTN ante and keep the small blind=bring in, and big blind = small bet = BTN ante. That way I could keep a consistent ante rule for every game rather than changing it.

You could do ante=bring in to simplify the levels, and SB already equals big bet. The WSOP does a big blind ante, probably because it’s the standard for NLH tournaments.

But it seems like from what I am seeing such a bring in would be too large,

Yes, because the bring in player can complete for the amount of the Small Bet, almost like a blind.

and total ante'd chips too little... So maybe I need to re-examine that as well

The ante is a single-player ante based on the WSOP structures.

Hopefully this helps with some of these concerns!

 

[Aeternus]

Likely not. Rule of thumb is Total chips/20 = ending big blind, but since limit plays ~4x smaller, it would be a smaller number. Since there’s not many hands/orbit, the limits might get fairly high before the tournament ends.

I thought the rule was total chips / 100 = ending BB, but it looks like there are a lot of different rules, and that was one of the most early by far for estimated time. https://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/...mate-when-a-poker-tournament-will-end_120187/

You could do ante=bring in to simplify the levels, and SB already equals big bet. The WSOP does a big blind ante, probably because it’s the standard for NLH tournaments.

Big Blind ante seems like it would be odd to just have the person 2 to the left of the BTN ante in Stud since they aren't really a big blind, but could just do it that way anyway I suppose.

Yes, because the bring in player can complete for the amount of the Small Bet, almost like a blind.

Alright, I'll prolly add a bring in value of 1/2 the SB
So bring in = 1
small blind = 2
small bet = big blind = 4
big bet = 8

In a holdem tournament I would have the ante be the big blind, so 4 in this chart, but are you suggesting the ante should instead match the small blind or bring in and therefor be much smaller?

The ante is a single-player ante based on the WSOP structures.

Hopefully this helps with some of these concerns!

Thank you very much for the help! Hard to sort through/find resources for HORSE and limit tournaments home games I find online.

 

[TheRealStephen12]

I thought the rule was total chips / 100 = ending BB, but it looks like there are a lot of different rules, and that was one of the most early by far for estimated time. https://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/...mate-when-a-poker-tournament-will-end_120187/

This is for big field tournaments, the rule doesn’t follow for smaller home game events. If you have 30 min blinds, you will probably end slightly deeper than if you used 20 like many on this site do.

Big Blind ante seems like it would be odd to just have the person 2 to the left of the BTN ante in Stud since they aren't really a big blind, but could just do it that way anyway I suppose.

That makes sense; I just suggested BB since that’s what the WSOP does.

Alright, I'll prolly add a bring in value of 1/2 the SB
So bring in = 1
small blind = 2
small bet = big blind = 4
big bet = 8

In a holdem tournament I would have the ante be the big blind, so 4 in this chart, but are you suggesting the ante should instead match the small blind or bring in and therefor be much smaller?

Make the ante = Bring In to roughly match the WSOP ratio.

Thank you very much for the help! Hard to sort through/find resources for HORSE and limit tournaments home games I find online.

 

[Aeternus]

This is for big field tournaments, the rule doesn’t follow for smaller home game events. If you have 30 min blinds, you will probably end slightly deeper than if you used 20 like many on this site do.

Looking back on past home games for me I see the following data at least for my group/players NLHE it looks like the last 5 ended between 64 and 90 BB's for our 16-20 people tournaments, so a fair bit off the 20 BB rule. Though if the rule of thumb is 4x smaller for limit, then small bet / big blind = 300k at game end still makes sense.

I like keeping 40 minute levels so that more game types get time at each level, but I am not sure if that is the right call. Based on your structure I put this one together. Basically the same but removes a few levels. Still ruminating on that.

I am leaning a little on it potentially going too long over too short, but I think that's okay in the worst case!


Current Planned HORSE structure:

Starting stack: 150K ( 10 / 8 / 4 ), all values are in thousands below
Rotate game every 8 hands (match WSOP HORSE rules)
Button Ante in all games.
Expected End: Level 12-14

Start Time End Time Duration Bring In/Ante Small Blind Small Bet / Big Blind / Completion Big Bet
12:00 PM 12:40 PM 40m 1 2 3 6
12:40 PM 1:20 PM 40m 1 2 4 8
1:20 PM 2:00 PM 40m 2 3 6 12
2:00 PM 2:15 PM 15m Break
2:15 PM 2:55 PM 40m 3 5 10 20
2:55 PM 3:35 PM 40m 4 8 15 30
3:35 PM 4:15 PM 40m 5 10 20 40
4:15 PM 4:55 PM 40m Break – Food – Color Up 1K – Re buys End
4:55 PM 5:35 PM 40m 10 15 30 60
5:35 PM 6:15 PM 40m 10 20 40 80
6:15 PM 6:55 PM 40m 15 30 60 120
6:55 PM 7:10 PM 15m Break
7:10 PM 7:50 PM 40m 20 40 80 160
7:50 PM 8:30 PM 40m 25 50 100 200
8:30 PM 9:10 PM 40m 35 75 150 300
9:10 PM 9:25 PM 15m Break – Color Up 5K
9:25 PM 10:05 PM 40m 50 100 200 400
10:05 PM 10:45 PM 40m 75 150 300 600
10:45 PM 11:25 PM 40m 125 250 500 1000
(Plus a few more 1.5x then 2x levels if it keeps going)


I think my biggest problem with this setup is level 7 being a 1:3 ante small bet feeling kinda large, especially right after rebuys end.
In NLHE we end rebuys when starting stack is about 15BBs, so ending here at a starting stack of 5BBs I think is reasonable, plus the NLHE ante is a full BB rather than 1/4th.

 

[Aeternus]

The ante is a single-player ante based on the WSOP structures.

When I look at videos for the WSOP stud final tables it looks like everyone pays the ante? Meaning there is significantly more money in the pot before any action.