Tourney How well do you understand the TDA poker rules? (1 Viewer)

[ArielVer18]

Created this thread to not further derail the other thread. Based on the latest TDA Poker Rules, what are the correct ruling for the following situations?

Situation A
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out two 1k chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation B
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out three 1k chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation C
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out four 500 chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation D
Blinds are 500/1000. Small Blind is facing a raise to 2000. Small Blind pulls back the single 500 chip that was posted as SB, then puts out three 1k chips.

Situation E
Does the order matter? Again, as Situation D, blinds are 500/1000 and Small Blind is facing a raise to 2000. Small Blind puts out three 1k chips and pulls back the single 500 chip that was posted as SB.

Situation F
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind pulls back the single 1k chip that was posted as the big blind, then puts out two 1k chips.

Situation G
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind pulls back the single 5k chip that was posted as the big blind, then puts out two 1k chips.


For anyone reading this in the future, 2022 TDA Rules is the latest edition as of this posting. For reference to the latest TDA rules, here's the link: https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

 

[Defarse]

A: Calls 1100
B: Raise to 3000
C: Raise to 2000
D: Raise to 3000
E: Raise to 3000. Does not matter. Would matter if small blind places three 1k chips, brings hand back to stack, and then brings hand forward again to take back 500 chip.
F: Calls 1100
G: Calls 1100

Situation H
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind has single 1k chip that was posted as the big blind, then puts out one 1k chip.

 

[ArielVer18]

I would argue Situation G is a raise to 2000

Situation H
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind has single 1k chip that was posted as the big blind, then puts out one 1k chip.

call 1100

 

[RocAFella1]

@ekricket

 

[Defarse]

I would argue Situation G is a raise to 2000

I think A, F, G, and H are all the same. Both chips are needed to make the call.

 

[RocAFella1]

G...Both chips are needed to make the call.

Player could've tapped the 5k to call the 1100 raise.

 

[Defarse]

Player could've tapped the 5k to call the 1100 raise.

I stand corrected. Raise to 2000

If prior chips are partly pulled back OR if prior chips cover the call, the combined final chip bet is a raise if reaching the 50% standard (Rules 43 and 45), if less it is a call.

 

[ekricket]

Situation A
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out two 1k chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

The raise here is $900 by somebody before the big blind.
The BB has changed his action by pulling his two chips, and he has added more than 50% of the previous raise by adding in an amount equal to the previous raise.

 

[ekricket]

The raise here is $900 by somebody before the big blind.
The BB has changed his action by pulling his two chips, and he has added more than 50% of the previous raise by adding in an amount equal to the previous raise.

If prior chips are partly pulled back OR if prior chips cover the call, the combined final chip bet is a raise if reaching the 50% standard (Rules 43 and 45), if less it is a call.

Somehow these have to reconcile

 

[Natskule]

Created this thread to not further derail the other thread. Based on the latest TDA Poker Rules, what are the correct ruling for the following situations?

Situation A
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out two 1k chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation B
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out three 1k chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation C
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out four 500 chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation D
Blinds are 500/1000. Small Blind is facing a raise to 2000. Small Blind pulls back the single 500 chip that was posted as SB, then puts out three 1k chips.

Situation E
Does the order matter? Again, as Situation D, blinds are 500/1000 and Small Blind is facing a raise to 2000. Small Blind puts out three 1k chips and pulls back the single 500 chip that was posted as SB.

Situation F
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind pulls back the single 1k chip that was posted as the big blind, then puts out two 1k chips.

Situation G
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind pulls back the single 5k chip that was posted as the big blind, then puts out two 1k chips.


For anyone reading this in the future, 2022 TDA Rules is the latest edition as of this posting. For reference to the latest TDA rules, here's the link: https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

A Raise to 2000
B Raise to 3000
C Raise to 2000
D Raise to 3000
E Raise to 3000
F Call at 1100
G Call at 1100

If I was at home, I'd simply ask the player, "Is that a raise or a call?", I'd ask the dealer the same question at the casino.

 

[ArielVer18]

If I was at home, I'd simply ask the player, "Is that a raise or a call?", I'd ask the dealer the same question at the casino.

15 years ago, sure. Some of these situations were clarified in the last decade by the TDA because the philosophy changed from "asking the player to clarify." It appears the current TDA philosophy is to have a default ruling for every situation and not allow the player to clarify. It is the player's responsibility to make their intentions clear or risk a floorperson making a ruling other than what the player intended.

 

[RocAFella1]

G Call at 1100

Why would this be different from A?

 

[Natskule]

15 years ago, sure. Some of these situations were clarified in the last decade by the TDA because the philosophy changed from "asking the player to clarify." It appears the current TDA philosophy is to have a default ruling for every situation and not allow the player to clarify. It is the player's responsibility to make their intentions clear or risk a floorperson making a ruling other than what the player intended.

Fair enough. Just saying what I'd do if I was in the game, or it was at my home game. I'd just ask the player what it was and roll with it.

 

[BGinGA]

Created this thread to not further derail the other thread. Based on the latest TDA Poker Rules, what are the correct ruling for the following situations?

Situation A
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out two 1k chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation B
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out three 1k chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation C
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind puts out four 500 chips and pulls back the two 100 chips that were posted as BB.

Situation D
Blinds are 500/1000. Small Blind is facing a raise to 2000. Small Blind pulls back the single 500 chip that was posted as SB, then puts out three 1k chips.

Situation E
Does the order matter? Again, as Situation D, blinds are 500/1000 and Small Blind is facing a raise to 2000. Small Blind puts out three 1k chips and pulls back the single 500 chip that was posted as SB.

Situation F
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind pulls back the single 1k chip that was posted as the big blind, then puts out two 1k chips.

Situation G
Blinds are 100/200. Big Blind is facing a raise to 1100. Big Blind pulls back the single 5k chip that was posted as the big blind, then puts out two 1k chips.


For anyone reading this in the future, 2022 TDA Rules is the latest edition as of this posting. For reference to the latest TDA rules, here's the link: https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

A: Raise to 2200. Players are not allowed to alter their bet after making it. Pulling chips back after making action is not allowed.

If existing blind chips had been pulled prior to placing the additional chips, the action is Raise to 2000.

B: Raise to 3200 (see above).

If existing blind chips had been pulled prior to placing the additional chips, the action is Raise to 3000.

C: Raise to 2200. See A above.

D: Raise to 3000.

E: Order matters. Raise to 3500 (player cannot deduct chips from his action).

F: Raise to 2000.

G: Raise to 2000.


Note:
As I posted in the other thread, the TDA rule regarding multiple-chip calls/raises is fatally flawed (and ignored in any game using TDA rules where I am TD.... in the best interest of the game).

 

[ArielVer18]

@BGinGA Blinds are 1/3. Multiple players have limped in for $3 by throwing in a $5 chip. Small Blind tosses out a $5 chip and pulls back the single $1 chip that was posted as SB. This has always been a call to $3 everywhere I've played. Are you saying this should've been a raise to $6 because Small Blind isn't allowed to pull back chips?

 

[BGinGA]

@BGinGA Blinds are 1/3. Multiple players have limped in for $3 by throwing in a $5 chip. Small Blind tosses out a $5 chip and pulls back the single $1 chip that was posted as SB. This has always been a call to $3 everywhere I've played. Are you saying this should've been a raise to $6 because Small Blind isn't allowed to pull back chips?

Technically, yes, but cash games have historically been ruled less rigidly in the practice. One could easily argue it's a $3 call simply based on the single-oversized-chip rule (unless announced as raise beforehand).

Allowing players to pull back chips after making a betting action opens up a multitude of angle-shooting opportunities. It's just a bad practice to do it, or to allow it.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I have to agree with @BGinGA. You should not be pulling back chips after dropping chips. That is the very essence of a string bet.

Sadly, it has become so commonplace, that I alone, cannot stop it. However, I will back 100%, any TD that makes a "drop-puller" return the pulled chips, if it would be a legal bet.

In the end, if you do anything unusual, you must accept that your bet/call/raise may be interpreted differently. Once the chips have been dropped, you no longer have voice in the argument. You had your chance to verbalize, and let it go. If your intention wasn't clear and you go bust because of it, well... play better next time.

 

[Natskule]

I have to agree with @BGinGA. You should not be pulling back chips after dropping chips. That is the very essence of a string bet.

Sadly, it has become so commonplace, that I alone, cannot stop it. However, I will back 100%, any TD that makes a "drop-puller" return the pulled chips, if it would be a legal bet.

In the end, if you do anything unusual, you must accept that your bet/call/raise may be interpreted differently. Once the chips have been dropped, you no longer have voice in the argument. You had your chance to verbalize, and let it go. If your intention wasn't clear and you go bust because of it, well... play better next time.

I've just made it a habit to verbalize my action any time it's not a check or call. Just think there is less confusion and it's clearer if I state what I'm doing.

 

[allforcharity]

To me, these are all raises.

Why the heck would somebody post a 100/200 blind with a 5k chip if they have at least 1k chips in their stack?

 

[BGinGA]

To me, these are all raises.

Why the heck would somebody post a 100/200 blind with a 5k chip if they have at least 1k chips in their stack?

I've been known to post a blind with an overchip with the intention of getting change needed to simplfy my future actions.

 

[ArielVer18]

Technically, yes, but cash games have historically been ruled less rigidly in the practice. One could easily argue it's a $3 call simply based on the single-oversized-chip rule (unless announced as raise beforehand).

This was a simplified example of some of the situations in my OP where the eventually ruling (based on the current TDA rules) is a call.

Allowing players to pull back chips after making a betting action opens up a multitude of angle-shooting opportunities. It's just a bad practice to do it, or to allow it.

I actually agree, but unfortunately it's a longstanding player habit that the rules have not yet disallowed. Only a few years ago, most poker players finally agree that multi-motion raise should no longer be allowed. If non-verbal betting style is trending towards "single motion only," I hope "pushing out chips, THEN pulling back chips from prior bets" should not be allowed in the future.

 

[TheOffalo]

What if you drop the chips next to existing chips, then while hand is extended, pick up the existing chips, in one action?

 

[Poker Zombie]

What if you drop the chips next to existing chips, then while hand is extended, pick up the existing chips, in one action?

That is akin to the also frowned upon: taking a large stack of chips, extending them, dropping one off the bottom, then bringing the rest back. It is all one action, but clearly a way to angle.

 

[allforcharity]

I've been known to post a blind with an overchip with the intention of getting change needed to simplfy my future actions.

I'd rather just make change with another player, outside the pot. If there's not enough to make change even from the big stack, then there's a problem with the distribution/balance of the denominations.

 

[Taghkanic]

In my game, the answer would be exactly the same in all situations *the first time it happened*.

Namely:

“Are you checking or raising?”

Wait for the answer, then allow whatever they were trying to do.

Then:

“In the future please make your check/bet properly, in a way that makes it clear what you’re doing. Otherwise be prepared to not like my ruling. This goes for everyone.

“And preferably, everyone please just announce your intention before putting in or removing any chips. It makes life so much easier for all of us.”

 

[krafticus]

Again, TDA rule #1 applies as the host…