What do you think about this hand?? (1 Viewer)

chipjoker

chipjoker

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I was at @Shaggy's game, Saturday night November 17th, 6pm to 1am, game is .25/.50 however, pre-flop raises are $3 to $5. We have already talked about the game ending soon and I have had a lot of ups and downs.

Table image: LAG with a slightly TILTed attitude.

I am in for $300, I (Hero) have about $250 at the start of the hand and I am UTG+2
Villain is TAG, in for $200 has about $300 and is in SB.

The rest of the table likes to limp and call pre-flop raises.

UTG-folds, UTG+1 limps, Hero AsKs raises to $3, fold, call, call, Villain (SB) call, BB Call, UTG+1 calls.

Pot Now $21 - 7 players

What you think so far? Do you have questions at this point?
 
If the opening range is $3-5 I’m going with the upped end of this with a bunch of loose passive players. Get as much dead money in the pot preflop as possible. Make it $5 to go preflop.
 
If the preflop range of $3-5 is enabling the status quo of lots of limps and calls, it's time for the price of poker to go up. I play in a $0.25/0.50 game with a similar texture, and even raises on the larger side still get action. I can make it $10 straight with no limpers from UTG and still get called in five places. And stacks are usually much shallower.

Better to make it $8-10 preflop. Hopefully you can get it heads-up once in a while, but even if not, punish those limpers.
 
OK, one small correction 6 players pre, $18 in pot..

FLOP:
Ac Kh 9s

CHECKS TO HERO

Now what?
 
OK,
Villain: check

Player 2 & 3: check

Hero: bet 6 (I can explain later)

Player 5 & 6: call

Villain: raise to $25 total

Player 2 & 3: fold

Hero: Pot=$39, $19 to call. Action ?
 
Let's keep in mind how deep this game is. Hero has $250 or 500bb. The preflop raises are a bit stiff, but not that unreasonable at 6bb to 10bb ($12 to $20 at a $1/$2 table). This deep AKs plays more like a suited ace than a big ace. I doubt hero would feel very good playing for stacks with top pair / top kicker. Much clearer if hero is chasing the flush.

Seven handed makes the hand even more a "suited ace" rather than a big ace. Hero could be hard pressed if all he flops is an ace or king.

I sure wish we had some post flop villain reads . . .

It would be best not to tip off the future by telling us who the villain is (meaning one villain rather than multi way)

Back to the hand - This is a great flop for hero. Top two pair plus a back door flush draw. I agree with @Jimulacrum bet $20. Its late, they will call $20 if they would call $10.

Though we don't officially know who is the villain, I have questions . . . . .

1. Do you really mean TAG? Not tight? Not TAP?
2. Is villain skilled?
3. What level thinker is he? Does hero's table image mean much to villain?
4. Will villain stack off holding one pair?
5. Is it reasonable for villain to hope hero stacks off with one pair?

I don't like villain's range if he doesn't fold. God help Hero if villain check raises.

DrStrange

PS please explain now. a 1/3 pot bet into a six way pot looks weak. Everyone knows everyone - especially a skilled villain. What is Hero representing with the micro bet? Is villain thinking hero is c-betting pocket fives and can take the pot away? or is Hero trapping? But if so, what does it mean that villain snapped on the bait anyway. Who is the sucker?

This isn't an idle question. it is pivotal to making a reasonable decision about how to proceed.
 
DrStrange said:
Let's keep in mind how deep this game is. Hero has $250 or 500bb. The preflop raises are a bit stiff, but not that unreasonable at 6bb to 10bb ($12 to $20 at a $1/$2 table). This deep AKs plays more like a suited ace than a big ace. I doubt hero would feel very good playing for stacks with top pair / top kicker. Much clearer if hero is chasing the flush.

Seven handed makes the hand even more a "suited ace" rather than a big ace. Hero could be hard pressed if all he flops is an ace or king.

I sure wish we had some post flop villain reads . . .

It would be best not to tip off the future by telling us who the villain is (meaning one villain rather than multi way)

Back to the hand - This is a great flop for hero. Top two pair plus a back door flush draw. I agree with @Jimulacrum bet $20. Its late, they will call $20 if they would call $20.

Though we don't officially know who is the villain, I have questions . . . . .

1. Do you really mean TAG? Not tight? Not TAP?
2. Is villain skilled?
3. What level thinker is he? Does hero's table image mean much to villain?
4. Will villain stack off holding one pair?
5. Is it reasonable for villain to hope hero stacks off with one pair?

I don't like villain's range if he doesn't fold. God help Hero if villain check raises.

DrStrange
Click to expand...


1. Do you really mean TAG? Not tight? Not TAP? Tight player, typical, when in a hand raises pre-flop.
2. Is villain skilled? Yes
3. What level thinker is he? Does hero's table image mean much to villain? Ranges players, counts outs/odds, sometimes test people (like once a night Maybe).
4. Will villain stack off holding one pair? Depends on who they are playing....
5. Is it reasonable for villain to hope hero stacks off with one pair? Not likley, although Hero is Tilt a little, but I would lean towards NO.
 
We are 4th to act? I bet somewhere around the $10-15 range. Probably closer to $15 given how deep we are. I’m going against dr strange...check raise me please
 
3 bet him now, before he hits his 1 outer to stack you.
I would have bet around $20, but since our villain has cooperated and raised to 25...make it 70-80.
I'm satisfied with taking it down right here if he folds.
 
Ok, so after the small blind check raises, it’s $19 to us and a $61 pot (you have $39 but it should be $61 if the action is right). I never fold here. Raise vs call is tough.

Raising (to $80-100) is safer against the two folks who called behind and denies equity if they have gutshots. However, it puts us in a tough decisions if V1 4-bet jams.

It’s an argument for reconsidering the bet sizing, as the ultra low $6 bet has put us in a weird spot.

I vote call, but raise to $80 isn’t horrible.
 
And there’s the problem with only betting $6 post-flop. You don’t know whether the villain thinks you have placed a continuation bet and he’a looking to induce a fold, or whether he’s made a set or two pair. You’re still in good shape, but you don’t have as much information as you could have had. At this point I’m raising $60-80 more and finding out where I stand.
 
Yeah, pretty much hate the way-too-low $6 flop bet as much as the way-too-low $3 pre-flop raise.

As played, I'm re-raising to $75, although I wouldn't argue with $90-$100 either. Having the major villain face only $50 more into a $135-ish pot almost seems like too low a price for him to pay. And even worse if somebody else also calls before he acts.

Okay, I talked myself into it -- raise to $110, and calling any shove.
 
I'm raising here also. 100 to go and calling a jam. I just dont see how we can fold top two here. Yes he can have a set of 9s but that's all that beats us. Even if he has 9s we still have 4 outs twice. We also have backdoor spades which isnt a huge plus but it's like 4% more equity.
 
So action on Hero, Hero tanks and then raises to $100 total

players 5 and 6 fold

Villain then SHOVES All in (has Hero covered)
Back to Hero Pot is around $361, its $130 to call:

Action?
 
Normally in this spot, with my image I’d flat the $25 and check all turns to the villain (though I’d have bet closer to $20 myself in the flop) since you would only be repping sets or AK if you popped it again.

Given your lag/tilted image, it might be a good spot to 3 bet. I’d maybe make it on the larger size to $100 and hope it looks bluffier.

Edit. posted this before I read your previous post about the jam.

I’m gonna get abused for this, but I’d probably fold. I don’t see what you are beating here, and you said this guy is pretty tight. Given the low stakes and without knowing villain, I’m gonna assume this guy is generally playing faceup. What bluffs can he have on this board now. You’ve probably run into 99s.
 
If he had AA, KK, or AK, then you would think that he would have raised pre-flop in hopes of getting heads up, or at least 3-way. He’s probably only flatting with pocket pairs or suited connectors less than AK. And if he’s indeed tight then he’s probably not calling with K9 suited. He’s likely not shoving even if he hit the K9. That only leaves pocket 9s.
 
Oh... but I’m calling and hoping my read is wrong, that I hit the back door flush or that I fill up the boat.
 
Villain is TAG, Hero's image is LAG and tilted. I can't see folding top two here. We're getting 3:1 on a call. Villain can't ever show up with A9 suited thinking he's best, or overplay an AQ type holding?

Yes, of course 99 is in his range here as well. But given the size of the pot and money we put in, we need to win 25% of the time for this call to be breakeven. You guys think he has a set of 9's more than 75% of the time in this spot?
 
Yeah definatley calling. If he has 9s he has 9s. Aa and kk are not really plausible given preflop action besides you have blockers to both. Your not quite getting the right odds to call if you know he has 9s. If he could possibly have a9 or k9 then I think you have to call.
 
Ive been playing recently and remembering that at these stakes players typically underbluff.

I’m fairly aggressive and would happily jam this flop, given the opportunity, but when 3 betting and facing a 4 bet jam on this exact board, I can’t help but think I’m beat.

Hands that beat us or chop:

I don’t expect him to have aa or kk, but I guess it’s possible, if extremely unlikely. Surely he 3 bets this pre flop from the SB.

Pocket 9s is a reasonable hand that he would do this with and I expect him to show up with it more often than not.

Hands we beat:
Total air or A9. Is he really going to play A9 this way? Maybe, but it seems unlikely and I don’t recall seeing anyone at these stakes spaz out like this and jam a whole stack with total air.

Sod the maths, I’m just gonna bin it.
 
Last edited:
I'm on board with the $100 reraise.

It folds around to Villain, who shoves. Not really the line we want here. It's better to be able to take control and extract value with top two pair, not get shoved on. Villain is described as a typical tight player. What's a typical tight player's range here?

He calls a preflop raise in worst position.
He raises a multi-way flop against the preflop raiser.
He 4-bet shoves over the preflop raiser's 3-bet (heads-up).

I honestly think this is a fold. A tight player is almost never taking this line with one pair, and the two pair hands he could have are unlikely preflop holdings (and arguably not strong enough to shove here either), aside from the extra-unlikely AK. Flop's as dry as can be; the biggest draw is a gutshot. He's shoving all his money against a hand that appears to be strong, fully expecting to get called. It's hard to see a tight player's range being wider than AA (1 combo), KK (1 combo), 99 (4 combos), and AK (4 combos) here. Only getting 2:1 here, it kinda sucks, but I think it's a spot to save your money.
 
He could have ak I think he could also have a9 suited or possibly even k9 suited. His line is less likely with a9 or k9, but it was 6 way preflop so I think even a tight player might like those pot odds with a suited ace or k.
 
I mean he probably had 99 or ak. But I dont think a9 or k9 necessarily fold preflop. I doubt s competent player is taking this line after the flop with those holdings though. I think it's a close spot at this point. I probably call though.
 

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