Tournaments: Play to Win or Cash? (1 Viewer)

[TheOffalo]

There seems to be moderate consensus that one should go for the win when playing a tournament, rather than just focusing on making the money. I'm actually mildly on the opposing side of that sentiment, but I've been trying to go for the win in some recent tournaments, and I've busted twice on the bubble, annoyingly.

In my most recent tournament, if I had folded I would have min-cashed at the least with a chance to improve to a bigger payout, but I think it would have been too nitty to do so. You tell me...

Final table of a small PokerStars tournament: 6 players remaining, 5 get paid (5th is a "paid bubble" which is the entry fee minus the bounty amount, so still a net loss on one buy-in). Don't remember exact chip counts, but I had ~6k (bottom stack in 6th), and V1 had ~12k (2nd stack) and V2 had us both covered (top stack).

Blinds are 125/250. I'm dealt in the BTN. Folds to me, and I make a standard 3x raise to 750. (I thought about shoving since I'm the shortest stack, but I still had 24BBs and didn't want to overcommit on this hand.)

V1 in the SB flats, and V2 in the BB overcalls. 3 players to the flop, which comes out (may not have the suits exactly right, but they didn't end up mattering).

V1 goes all-in and V2 re-shoves. I figured one V has ... but I had top two-pair and the nut boat draw!

I tank for a bit, trying to decide between folding and hoping V2 knocks out V1 and I am guaranteed min-cash with the opportunity to improve, or going for triple-up and praying my boat draw hits.

I decide to call. V1 shows ! (No 3-bet pre-flop?!? Guess he thought he was trapping and doing a stop-and-go? ) V2 of course has !

Turn is a and river is a blank. V1, who was 2nd stack, busts out in 5th for the paid bubble, and I am out in 6th in the unpaid bubble.

So I feel like I know the answer many (most?) of you will give, but would you have folded after V2's overshove and hoped he knocked out V1 guaranteeing youself at least min-cash, or would you have gone for it like I did?

 

[BGinGA]

I initially play to win cash / league points / etc., but once past that point I play to win.

In your example, I raise smaller pre-flop (likely 625-650, folding to a re-raise), and definitely fold to two all-in players on the flop.

I insta-call if five-handed in that pay-out structure.

 

[grandmeme]

If the tournament cash is a lot of money (in relative terms), I will go for the min cash. This might be the case when I win a satellite to a higher stakes tournament, for example.

If not, I will go for the win.

In your specific case it's a snap call for me. I've seen a lot of worse hands than top two in multi way tournament action.

 

[Legend5555]

There have been simulations of ICM strategies (playing to cash and move up the ladder) vs chip EV strategies (playing like it's a cash game and to win). ICM makes more money long term, though playing to win will win the tournament more often. So if profit is your ultimate goal, playing to cash and move up is the better strategy.

 

[LeLe]

It depend on the stack at near the bubbles.,

If i have a short stack I aiming for a min cash. If I have a med to big stack I aiming for a better final position

 

[buzzmonkey]

I play to be in the cash. Depending on my stack size I'll either be aggressive to the short stacks near the bubble, or look for spots to double before I get below the 8-10 BB area. Once you're in the money it's all about the win.

 

[merkong]

Given that he preflop action (or really lack thereof) I would have called and been leary of sharing cards or the flush draw. Either way I think I would have been snapping.

 

[ovo]

I don't like the pressure of chopping the payout, I'd rather play for the win

 

[ekricket]

I play to win.
Sometimes that means giving up hands on the bubble.
You can’t win if you aren’t there.
Maybe you call it “in the money” but I call it “still in the game”.

 

[ThrowBack]

Being that poker has no bearing on my anything. I’m always going for a win! The pride of a win would be worth more than cash

 

[Highli99]

I bust early and go play cash

 

[JustinInMN]

Unless it's winner take all, payout structures reward survival over aggression.

There are even spots you should fold 100% of your holdings because of the ladder effect.

You should avoid all marginals spots to get as high up the latter and really only play to win once it is heads up.

In the hand in question, especially feeling solid about the read, I think this is an easy flop fold.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

I don't think a 3x open is standard. If it is, it shouldn't be. You're at the point in the tournament where an open should be a min raise or 2.1-2.2x.

 

[JustinInMN]

I don't think a 3x open is standard. If it is, it shouldn't be. You're at the point in the tournament where an open should be a min raise or 2.1-2.2x.

The 3x is the standard open is definitely "homespun wisdom" from the early days of the poker boom. It's a fairly recent tournament strategy development to prefer smaller preflop sizing as stacks get shallower later in tournaments.

 

[TheOffalo]

It’s “standard” in that it’s a default button in PokerStars, and while it’s changeable most people in the home game group I play in don’t bother, and people in the game use it all the time. I can’t remember who the blinds were now but depending on that I may have chosen a smaller sizing but that particular hand I went with the 3X button.

 

[RagahRagah]

To me it always comes down to instinct and the individual scenario. Everything you learn is a guideline but if you never deviate then to me you aren't really playing poker. I'm a numbers guy and usually tend to go with the odds, but IMO don't let anyone tell you not to fold if you know you are beat or have positive expectation to because the math (which never bends) tells you it's "unprofitable."

In this situation, exactly as you indicated, I'm likely behind and if there's about a 50% chance V2 knocks put V1 to put me in the money, I'm folding. You only win so many coin flips in a tournament. Of course you have to be aware more players are more likely to shove here with much less than the nuts this close to the end but the shove and overshove most times tells me I'm not the favorite here. I'm not eliminating the human element here and leaving as the bubble boy if I know I'm beat. But that's me.

 

[MrCatPants]

Highly situational. There's situations in MTTs where you don't have a competitive stack that you should strive to min cash. And then if you have a solid stack, abusing others during the bubble period is massively +EV.

Most tourneys have payout structures highly skewed towards the first couple places, so you really have to play to win/go deep if you have built a stack that allows it.

 

[noclue44]

In general I play to win. Only exception would be when playing with a big stack in a satellite where every winner gets the same prize.
I am not good at making these calculations, but it looks like you have to call 21 BB to win a 51 BB pot? (if the other two players have you covered)
If you think you are behind, those odds may not be enough to call here, even with the full house outs?
But I probably would have called here also.
My preferred play is shoving 24 BB pre-flop, because I like to keep things simple and often get in trouble post flop.