Limp Calling junk hands in early tournaments? (1 Viewer)

[Preditor]

Visiting family in Indiana, and was playing in a MTT at an American Legion. About 50 players. T100 tourney, starting stack of T15K.

The table I was at, people were limping first-in and limp calling with what felt like 60-80% of their ranges, basically anything with a face card or ace.

The times I was in later position with a premium hand or semi-bluff, I would 3-bet to something like 5-8bb, and still got 2-3 callers.

Early in the tourney, there were a few times I was in late position with junky hands (think unsuited connectors or gappers). It limped to me, and I folded sticking to my ranges. But then I would have connected with the board - think trips (one in my hand, two on the flop) and once a straight.

Looking back, I think I should have limp-called more in later position with a wider range of hands, and just folded if I didn't connect with the board. But I was curious what the PCF community thought.

With junky hands in late position with 5-7 limpers coming to you, is that a situation you would call in? Or would you stick to your standard ranges still?

 

[JMC9389]

Nah, let the loose passive players bleed chips. Save your chips and strike when opportune. Raise your premium hands larger than normal and punish them when you've got the goods.

 

[drdr]

Nah, let the loose passive players bleed chips. Save your chips and strike when opportune. Raise your premium hands larger than normal and punish them when you've got the goods.

Seconded. If you are raising to induce folds be prepared to raise more than normal, passive limpers tend to instant call normal raises and you risk ending up in huge multiway pots with reduced win chances.

 

[AH77]

You could’ve probably experimented a bit with limping more than you normally do given the way the table was playing. Better pot odds plus being fairly certain you aren’t going to be raised is a fair trade off for being a little looser with your calling range.

Against bad players, those pots where you “would’ve connected” with the flop can be really profitable as most inexperienced players will call off large portions of their stack with just top pair or weak draws. 3-betting and trying fancy plays pre-flop rarely register with inexperienced players and you end of bloating the pot unnecessarily.

 

[Preditor]

Nah, let the loose passive players bleed chips. Save your chips and strike when opportune. Raise your premium hands larger than normal and punish them when you've got the goods.

Thanks for the input.

Anything under 100bbs I would agree. But you hold to this even in the first couple blind levels when I'm sitting 100-150 bb deep?

It seems like calling some limps in the first two levels might give me some good opportunities to grab some pots from loose players if I flop a set or low two-pair. If I don't? I fold to a bet and am out for less than 1% of my stack. Not talking about opening as wide as them, but wider than I normally would.

If you and others hold to it, I'll re-evaluate. Playing in the same tourney tomorrow and want to adjust my strategy in the right way.

 

[Preditor]

You could’ve probably experimented a bit with limping more than you normally do given the way the table was playing. Better pot odds plus being fairly certain you aren’t going to be raised is a fair trade off for being a little looser with your calling range.

Against bad players, those pots where you “would’ve connected” with the flop can be really profitable as most inexperienced players will call off large portions of their stack with just top pair or weak draws. 3-betting and trying fancy plays pre-flop rarely register with inexperienced players and you end of bloating the pot unnecessarily.

Yes, this is what I was thinking as well. If it limps to me and calling with - say - 45o is less than 1% of my stack? It seems like it might be worth a strong connection with the right board that's difficult for others to see, and then making them bleed for it.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

It seems like calling some limps in the first two levels might give me some good opportunities to grab some pots from loose players if I flop a set or low two-pair. If I don't? I fold to a bet and am out for less than 1% of my stack. Not talking about opening as wide as them, but wider than I normally would.

Loosening up isn't inherently bad, but limping instead of raising isn't great. Incentivizes playing worse hands, leaves yourself open to re-raising when someone has an actual hand, makes your raises/premiums more obvious, and flopping a low two-pair is a dangerous drug.

In your example above, why not raise 45o if you're going to be limping in in later position? How did the table respond to 3bets? Instead of limping in and hoping to hit a flop like every other mook at the table, start putting pressure on and gain chips from their weak limps. You profit from the tons of dead money without having to make your hand, and when you do hit its more disguised because you're raising with more of your range, not separating it by limping. Most of the people in that room are limping to try to get lucky; play better. Abuse their need to hit the flop, be the person c-betting on that flop in later position with ATC to take it from them, not just going with their flow.

Not gonna tell you its not fun; when I'm in super soft games I limp way more than I should but most of mine are cash and private so that's more about my image and being invited back/giving action. In a public tournament setting, no real need to give away that many blinds.

 

[MichaelBubly]

Visiting family in Indiana, and was playing in a MTT at an American Legion. About 50 players. T100 tourney, starting stack of T15K.

The table I was at, people were limping first-in and limp calling with what felt like 60-80% of their ranges, basically anything with a face card or ace.

The times I was in later position with a premium hand or semi-bluff, I would 3-bet to something like 5-8bb, and still got 2-3 callers.

Early in the tourney, there were a few times I was in late position with junky hands (think unsuited connectors or gappers). It limped to me, and I folded sticking to my ranges. But then I would have connected with the board - think trips (one in my hand, two on the flop) and once a straight.

Looking back, I think I should have limp-called more in later position with a wider range of hands, and just folded if I didn't connect with the board. But I was curious what the PCF community thought.

With junky hands in late position with 5-7 limpers coming to you, is that a situation you would call in? Or would you stick to your standard ranges still?

This is my life at all of the home tournaments I play. Open 3-4x and end up 7 ways to a flop where someone donk raises with 2nd pair into 7 players.

It's great when you run pure, but it sucks when your 85% equity shrivels up in a massive pot because someone boinked a gut shot and knocks you out.

It's very jarring, but your EV should be very good.

Also sucks when you can't win a flip for months on end despite getting the chips in good almost every time. I've been getting back to cash more and more as at least I can rebuy.

 

[AH77]

Yes, this is what I was thinking as well. If it limps to me and calling with - say - 45o is less than 1% of my stack? It seems like it might be worth a strong connection with the right board that's difficult for others to see, and then making them bleed for it.

Yeah that is reasonable. You can always tighten up if you keep getting pushed out of pots after limping. Bad players generally just want to see a flop no matter what. So whether you are raising 3bbs or 8bbs pre-flop, they will still call and more importantly, CONTINUE calling throughout the hand even when they have a tiny piece.

C-betting with strong hands like AK, AQ etc. when you miss the flop ends up just leaving you frustrated when playing against them. It’s sometimes better to try and get in cheap, hit the flop, then really try to milk them for the next few streets as they will be calling you light most of the time.

 

[Preditor]

It’s sometimes better to try and get in cheap, hit the flop, then really try to milk them for the next few streets as they will be calling you light most of the time.

Yes, this is my exact experience.

Once our table broke and I moved to another, I was playing well because the remaining 30-or-so players at that point were doing more GTO strategy.

But I hadn't won any of the monster pots that had accumulated at my first table because I was playing too tight folding pre-flop. So when I moved tables, I was effectively short-stacked by that point. I blinded out, went all-on with 10bb left, lost, and finished around 25.

 

[AH77]

Yes, this is my exact experience.

Once our table broke and I moved to another, I was playing well because the remaining 30-or-so players at that point were doing more GTO strategy.

But I hadn't won any of the monster pots that had accumulated at my first table because I was playing too tight folding pre-flop. So when I moved tables, I was effectively short-stacked by that point. I blinded out, went all-on with 10bb left, lost, and finished around 25.

Yeah I generally widen my value betting range more than anything against these kinds of players. Betting something like 3rd pair with a good kicker will oftentimes be the best hand by the river so where I would normally check against a good player, I might throw in a value bet against a weaker player like you’ve described.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Deep stacked poker doesnt mean limping with weaker hands that might connect. Suited connector values go up so you end up raising with hands like j9s earlier in position than you normally would. You still need to keep to your ranges but they are different at 200bb than they are at 100bb, 50bb or 20BB. I increase my limping range slightly in the small blind and raise more liberally but not crazy loose. If everyone is happy to call my 2.5BB raise, I play poker afterward. You value bet wider and fold to aggression in those hands where you are at a table full of 40/2 players.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Looking back, I think I should have limp-called more in later position with a wider range of hands, and just folded if I didn't connect with the board.

Yes.

Part of the reason limping first-in is considered poor play is because it allows other players to get involved cheaply in better position. They can limp in behind with fair confidence that they won't be raised out (and in fact the whole loose-passive game texture you've described supports this).

Your counter to players like this is to limp a lot wider behind them, with speculative hands like suited aces, suited connectors, and the usual hands that prefer a limp, like small pairs. Invest small amounts of chips to catch value hands that will generally be better than the crap they catch limping so wide. This is especially true if the loose-passive play continues into later rounds. You'll get a lot more free cards when you want them and plenty of action when you catch hands.

This isn't a license to waste chips. Stick with solid speculative hands, not junk. Otherwise conserve chips and let them do their thing. Every player who busts is an advantage to you.

Given that they don't back down to raises, I'd tighten up a little there. Usually, hands like AT are good for a raise from even middle position because they're fairly strong and you can often scoop the blinds/limps or get it heads-up. At this table, that isn't happening at all; you can forget about any blind-stealing motives until you're much later in the tournament. Stick to raising only (a) when you have solid position and (b) when you have a hand that's stronger than usual to account for how often it will go multi-way.

 

[Preditor]

Part of the reason limping first-in is considered poor play is because it allows other players to get involved cheaply in better position. They can limp in behind with fair confidence that they won't be raised out (and in fact the whole loose-passive game texture you've described supports this).

Precisely. If I am in later position, I want to BE that player they're giving the opportunity to.

Your counter to players like this is to limp a lot wider behind them, with speculative hands like suited aces, suited connectors, and the usual hands that prefer a limp, like small pairs. Invest small amounts of chips to catch value hands that will generally be better than the crap they catch limping so wide. This is especially true if the loose-passive play continues into later rounds. You'll get a lot more free cards when you want them and plenty of action when you catch hands.

Yes. Actually, one pot I did win in this tournament later in the second blind round - when I was coming around to this strategy - was with pocket 2s.

I was CO+1. Limped to me pre-flop (5 limpers) with pocket 2s. I called the T200.

Flop came. Js4c2d. I hit the set.

UTG raised to T1.5k. Folded to me. I 3-bet to T4k. Rest of the players folded. UTG folded.

Would I see pocket 2s in most 9-player tables who raise to 3-5bb pre-flop? Not at all. But this hand led to one of my few paying pots of that table, when I was becoming wise to how I needed to tweak my strategy. To open it up with maybe some unsuited connectors or gappers.

I just caught onto it too late. If I had limped 4 other hands before this for T100 and STILL only won this hand? I was still 2-3x profitable. But with the hands I would have ended up connecting with if I hadn't folded, I could have been 10-20x profitable if I had opened my ranges a bit at this particular table.

Given that they don't back down to raises, I'd tighten up a little there. Usually, hands like AT are good for a raise from even middle position because they're fairly strong and you can often scoop the blinds/limps or get it heads-up. At this table, that isn't happening at all; you can forget about any blind-stealing motives until you're much later in the tournament. Stick to raising only (a) when you have solid position and (b) when you have a hand that's stronger than usual to account for how often it will go multi-way.

Totally agree with this. I think if I am first-in, I still want to start with my standard 2-5bb raise ranges. But other than that, I want to be a little quieter on them and go for the jugular with sneaks... as long as they give me a cheap look (and that is the key).

 

[AH77]

Deep stacked poker doesnt mean limping with weaker hands that might connect. Suited connector values go up so you end up raising with hands like j9s earlier in position than you normally would. You still need to keep to your ranges but they are different at 200bb than they are at 100bb, 50bb or 20BB. I increase my limping range slightly in the small blind and raise more liberally but not crazy loose. If everyone is happy to call my 2.5BB raise, I play poker afterward. You value bet wider and fold to aggression in those hands where you are at a table full of 40/2 players.

I generally agree but in this case, I feel like the focus here is more on the player profile rather than the size of the stacks. I don’t think OP wanted to limp more because stacks were deep but rather he wanted to see more cheap flops to capitalize on weak players on later streets.

 

[Frogzilla]

If the players behind you are not raising enough and if there is huge postflop edges because of big errors there, then limping seems quite reasonable as you get to play a lot more hands postflop. I’m not sure that’s the situation you’re in. Your examples were “would have flopped trips” which is not a signal to limp more. Signals to limp more are more like “I saw someone call 3 streets in a 5 way pot with 2nd pair…I need to be in as many hands with them as possible”

 

[Preditor]

If the players behind you are not raising enough and if there is huge postflop edges because of big errors there, then limping seems quite reasonable as you get to play a lot more hands postflop. I’m not sure that’s the situation you’re in. Your examples were “would have flopped trips” which is not a signal to limp more. Signals to limp more are more like “I saw someone call 3 streets in a 5 way pot with 2nd pair…I need to be in as many hands with them as possible”

I wasn't detailed enough, you're right. But precisely. I saw a lot of hands win on second or third pair, when I would have connected with a 2-pair or set if I hadn't folded to the limp.

 

[MrRossKeys]

Believe it or not, my answer to your original question is based on the answer to: "is there a rebuy?"

If it's a freeze-out then I would play more tight-aggressive early. If someone gets lucky against me then it was meant to be an early night or cash game. If I hold, then I'm higher than chip average, and moving to a new table won't blind me out.

If there are rebuys then I typically play looser in late position, especially when the precedent has been set that players want to see a cheap flop.

The goal either way is to build equity to win late. I don't want to make it to the final table short stacked... I want to have a healthy stack, so I read the room and try to figure out how to get there.

You could’ve probably experimented a bit with limping more than you normally do given the way the table was playing. Better pot odds plus being fairly certain you aren’t going to be raised is a fair trade off for being a little looser with your calling range.

Against bad players, those pots where you “would’ve connected” with the flop can be really profitable as most inexperienced players will call off large portions of their stack with just top pair or weak draws. 3-betting and trying fancy plays pre-flop rarely register with inexperienced players and you end of bloating the pot unnecessarily.

This is really good advice in my opinion.

 

[Frogzilla]

I wasn't detailed enough, you're right. But precisely. I saw a lot of hands win on second or third pair, when I would have connected with a 2-pair or set if I hadn't folded to the limp.

there’s an important distinction and it matters a lot. It doesn’t matter at all if your folded hole cards ended up connecting with the board. That mindset is prone to developing leaks. As soon as you fold, forget your cards. Don’t matter. The important thing that is relevant to your future strategy is how your opponents are playing, what the leaks are, and how you should adjust. Some excellent players in fields like this will limp a lot to play pots where they have an edge. You should be careful which opponent you’re up against.

Specifically watch out for
1) low squeezing frequencies preflop, especially the blinds
2) opponents incorrectly adjusting to the required hand strength to continue multi-way
3) opponents too fixated on raw hand value vs relative hand value (like raising trips when there is 4 to a straight on board)

 

[loosechange101]

Have to agree with most here. It's a classic trap to "just call, and only continue if I flop a monster". Just makes your overall game worse.

 

[WedgeRock]

Loosening up isn't inherently bad, but limping instead of raising isn't great. Incentivizes playing worse hands, leaves yourself open to re-raising when someone has an actual hand, makes your raises/premiums more obvious, and flopping a low two-pair is a dangerous drug.

In your example above, why not raise 45o if you're going to be limping in in later position? How did the table respond to 3bets? Instead of limping in and hoping to hit a flop like every other mook at the table, start putting pressure on and gain chips from their weak limps. You profit from the tons of dead money without having to make your hand, and when you do hit its more disguised because you're raising with more of your range, not separating it by limping. Most of the people in that room are limping to try to get lucky; play better. Abuse their need to hit the flop, be the person c-betting on that flop in later position with ATC to take it from them, not just going with their flow.

Not gonna tell you its not fun; when I'm in super soft games I limp way more than I should but most of mine are cash and private so that's more about my image and being invited back/giving action. In a public tournament setting, no real need to give away that many blinds.

I couldn't have said it better than this.

It doesn’t matter at all if your folded hole cards ended up connecting with the board. That mindset is prone to developing leaks.

This is also a salient point.

Its not just punish them if you hit your junk hand and fold if you miss. What if you open your range and limp a junk hand, then flop a flush draw that never gets there? Or flop bottom pair that doesn't improve?

It's going to be super frustrating to lose to J4 and you're probably going to give away more than you win. You're going to have to smash a flop to be able to continue with confidence.

 

[MrBoosh]

Sometimes there may be opportunities to adjust your play style slightly to the game and particular situations you are in, but don't ever beat yourself up in your mind for what could have happened if you would have called with some junky hands. Too many poor players think like that. If it was a junky hand, you made the right decision to get rid of it. It will burn you more times than it will help you.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, everyday would be F'ing Christmas!