Snowie says I blundered. What do you say? (1 Viewer)

[Kentucky]

Back on the 5NL streets rebuilding the online bank roll after some run bad (OK, OK - and some bad play) and I got into this hand. Snowie thinks I Blundered, but not where I would've thought. Interested to see how y'all would play this. First orbit so no real reads except trying to find thin value from calling stations and mostly giving credit for nutted river jams.

Folds around to V1 in the Hijack who opens to $0.17. That's a little more than 3x, but in the normal ball park. I'll allow it.
V2 on the button Button calls.
Hero in the BB with

I think a call is fairly standard (this would be a short thread if I folded) - but interested in if anyone likes a squeeze to try and get heads up here?

Anyway Pot is $0.53, flop comes

Hero checks in flow.
V1 c-bets for 3/4 pot - $0.38.
V2 calls once more.

Action on Hero?

 

[JMC9389]

I think Q 10 suitedis perfectly suitable for a three bet squeeze preflop. As played, I check raise to $1

 

[Frogzilla]

How deep, 100BB?

QT with backdoor hearts looks like a call on flop.

 

[JustinInMN]

Back on the 5NL streets rebuilding the online bank roll after some run bad (OK, OK - and some bad play) and I got into this hand. Snowie thinks I Blundered, but not where I would've thought. Interested to see how y'all would play this. First orbit so no real reads except trying to find thin value from calling stations and mostly giving credit for nutted river jams.

Folds around to V1 in the Hijack who opens to $0.17. That's a little more than 3x, but in the normal ball park. I'll allow it.
V2 on the button Button calls.
Hero in the BB with

I think a call is fairly standard (this would be a short thread if I folded) - but interested in if anyone likes a squeeze to try and get heads up here?

Anyway Pot is $0.53, flop comes

Hero checks in flow.
V1 c-bets for 3/4 pot - $0.38.
V2 calls once more.

Action on Hero?

I think the flat preflop is pretty standard. I don't hate mixing in a squeeze either, but that's kind of read depedendant which is tougher on line.

On the flop. I think even with two players interested, this hand is too good to fold. I think I am going to either raise-and-fold to a V1 3-bet, or just flat and see if V1 is going to bet again.

Pros of flatting:
We do have one overcard to the board, meaning 1) if we hit we will have the best two pair, 2) Only 3 overcards really "scare" our holding, so we may not need as much protection.

The turn is pretty high leverage. (Meaning really good/really bad for our holding, basically depending on whether an AKJ97 falls or not.) So we can probably fold the turn confidently with minimal loss if we catch one of the bad cards, or spring into action if we catch a "safe" card.

Pros of raising:
We find out right now if V1 has something foldable. He's going to be hard pressed to continue without at least a 10 and we deny his equity to the unpaired overcard misses that he has.

We also charge V2 more for what has to be at least a decent draw given he is flatting V1's c-bet.

So I think the decision is close, not sure where snowie is at. I probably lean for a flat and make my plan according to the turn.

 

[Kentucky]

How deep, 100BB?

QT with backdoor hearts looks like a call on flop.

Yeah - sorry. Everyone is roughly at 100BB.

 

[Kentucky]

The turn is pretty high leverage. (Meaning really good/really bad for our holding, basically depending on whether an AKJ97 falls or not.) So we can probably fold the turn confidently with minimal loss if we catch one of the bad cards, or spring into action if we catch a "safe" card.

I like this idea of leverage. I’ve not heard that before. I was starting to think more along these lines when I went over the hand afterwards. It’s such a wet/dynamic flop that there’s a lot of the deck we don’t want to see. Our line almost becomes Raise now while we are mostly likely good vs. keep the pot small and try to hang on. I’ll try to look for more of those spots in future.

 

[JustinInMN]

I like this idea of leverage. I’ve not heard that before. I was starting to think more along these lines when I went over the hand afterwards. It’s such a wet/dynamic flop that there’s a lot of the deck we don’t want to see. Our line almost becomes Raise now while we are mostly likely good vs. keep the pot small and try to hang on. I’ll try to look for more of those spots in future.

Yeah, one tends to get in these high leverage spots with middling top-pair kind of hands. (Not all "top-pair" hands are created equally, top pair of aces or kings is difficult to outdraw whereas top pair of 8s, 9s, and tens are more vulnerable to overcard redraws, and the fact that the other cards on board will be closer in rank so straight draws as well.)

If you had flopped the queen instead of the 10, the hand is a lot less vulnerable to overcard redraws. But yes, whenever you evaluate your options, it's worth reviewing all possibilities of what hits the turn and how you will have to react. Aside from the overcard redraws, there are extra cards that put 4-straights out there as well.

 

[Senzrock]

Vs HJ open you can def mix in some squeezes, generally opponent dependent + your image (are you perceived as tighter or looser side). I’ve been pushing myself to 3bet more suited Broadway combos out of position in these spots - main thing is to make sure to size UP when you do this because you are primarily looking for folds pre but don’t hate going to a flop HU with a hand that flops well and has decent equity vs villains calling range (ton of underpairs + hands like AJ/KJ/AJ etc).

As played, again you can mix in some flop raises but I prefer to check call here and proceed from there.

 

[Kentucky]

In the moment this was an auto call - TPGK of course I continue. I’d like to at least consider the raise in the future given how many cards I don’t want to see on the turn. Snowie said this should be a fold and don’t look back (-3.9 BB EV). I’m reassured that none of you went with that option and blundered on like I did .

Moving on…

Folds around to V1 in the Hijack who opens to $0.17 from $5 starting stack.
V2 on the button Button ($4.83) calls .
Hero ($4.85 after posting BB) calls in the BB with

Pot is $0.53, flop comes

Hero checks in flow.
V1 c-bets for 3/4 pot - $0.38.
V2 calls once more.
Hero calls

Pot is $1.67. Turn is -

Hero checks in flow.
V1 bets (again) for 3/4 pot - $1.19
V2 calls (again).

Hero?

 

[JMC9389]

Fold. V2 calling is bad news.

 

[Frogzilla]

Probably fine to call or fold with the gutter here.

 

[theshepherd]

Fold as well.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah I think I am passing here as well. The only "good " news is you have a redraw to a bigger straight. But it looks like the odds are 1.20 to call to win 4. I don't like that for a gutshot. (And yes of we are lucky in a best case scenario we collect 3.20 more on the river from possibly two players, but I don't think even that hope is enough to justify a call here.)

Fold with confidence.

. I’d like to at least consider the raise in the future given how many cards I don’t want to see on the turn.

I wouldn't look at it this way. I think by calling you are giving yourself a cheap out should the board turn ugly, yet giving your self a chance to score if it stays safe and you get to charge hands that are devalued with only one card to come instead of two.

 

[toothpic]

Agree with a fold here. Feels like only 3 cards on the river would make us pull ahead unless these guys are just terrible. Given we don’t have any reads on them yet we should tread lightly and fold to find a better spot later on

 

[Kentucky]

Hero folded too. The board was getting wetter and more connected. There was just too much money going in the pot from too many people to hang on with my pair of tens.

Folds around to V1 in the Hijack who opens to $0.17 from $5 starting stack.
V2 on the button Button ($4.83) calls .
Hero ($4.85 after posting BB) calls in the BB with

Pot is $0.53, flop comes

Hero checks in flow.
V1 c-bets for 3/4 pot - $0.38.
V2 calls once more.
Hero calls

Pot is $1.67. Turn is -

Hero checks in flow.
V1 bets (again) for 3/4 pot - $1.19
V2 calls for $1.19.
Hero folds

Pot is $4.05 River is -
Goes check - check.

V1 shows - I like his semi bluff on the turn with the Straight and Flush draw, though he gave up when it bricked out.
V2 show and scoops the pot with his (checks notes) pair of 9s..?

In the immediate aftermath I felt super nitty for folding the best hand, then later wondered if I should've been more aggressive earlier in the hand though that is difficult OOP. Seems like the PCF hive mind agrees with my play overall so I guess I was just supposed to lose this one. Thanks for sanity checking me.

 

[toothpic]

It would have been a nice pot to win but I don't think we can feel too terrible about the fold. Being put in the same position a dozen more times without reads on the villians it feels like the right play to do. Now that you know how they play, especially v2, you can adjust for future hands against these particular players.

Had you put more agression on earlier and if they had called what would you have done at that point?

 

[JustinInMN]

Pot is $4.05 River is -
Goes check - check.

V1 shows - I like his semi bluff on the turn with the Straight and Flush draw, though he gave up when it bricked out.
V2 show and scoops the pot with his (checks notes) pair of 9s..?

Well did not see that coming, but yeah, I still think this is a fold. Gutshot and overcard make sense for V2. Some portion of the time V2 is going to make the straight instead of the pair too which is all the more reason to fold this. If A9s is in V2s range, A7s likely is as well.

It does look like in retrospect checkraising the flop would have worked, but that's tough against two players.

So all that remains is to ask where did Snowie say you went wrong?

 

[JMC9389]

Right fold at the wrong time. It happens.

 

[Kentucky]

Well did not see that coming, but yeah, I still think this is a fold. Gutshot and overcard make sense for V2. Some portion of the time V2 is going to make the straight instead of the pair too which is all the more reason to fold this. If A9s is in V2s range, A7s likely is as well.

It does look like in retrospect checkraising the flop would have worked, but that's tough against two players.

So all that remains is to ask where did Snowie say you went wrong?

In the moment this was an auto call - TPGK of course I continue. I’d like to at least consider the raise in the future given how many cards I don’t want to see on the turn. Snowie said this should be a fold and don’t look back (-3.9 BB EV). I’m reassured that none of you went with that option and blundered on like I did .

Snowie was hoping for a fold every single round (even pre-). The flop continue was officially a Blunder.

 

[JMC9389]

Eh, Q10 suited can play well multiways even out of position, IMO. I'd still three bet, and defending the blind with a call isn' terrible either, but maybe snowie says fold because you weren't that deep?

 

[JustinInMN]

Snowie was hoping for a fold every single round (even pre-). The flop continue was officially a Blunder.

Snowie is a nit.

I think you took the exact line I would have taken by default here on the 3 streets. Once in a while you lay down the best hand. But I think if call the turn is your general strategy, you are going to run into the goods too often with a thin redraw.

 

[Frogzilla]

Snowie was hoping for a fold every single round (even pre-). The flop continue was officially a Blunder.

Did you put in the actual action? Does it say what it assumes HJ, BU ranges are? The preflop fold recommendation makes me think there are some unusual assumption snowie is making. I don’t play around a lot but these can be chaotic and sensitive to inputs so you really have to babysit and validate and make sure it’s a reasonable simulation of your situation.

QTs is so far within a normal BB vs HJ defend range that it almost certainly should still be in even though the open was a little larger and the button flatted.

 

[Kentucky]

Did you put in the actual action? Does it say what it assumes HJ, BU ranges are? The preflop fold recommendation makes me think there are some unusual assumption snowie is making. I don’t play around a lot but these can be chaotic and sensitive to inputs so you really have to babysit and validate and make sure it’s a reasonable simulation of your situation.

QTs is so far within a normal BB vs HJ defend range that it almost certainly should still be in even though the open was a little larger and the button flatted.

I loaded the Hand History for the session into the Analyzer but otherwise it's out of the box Snowie. This is the pre-flop chart for that BB spot. QTs is a 100% fold. We get to call when there is no rake so it is close. For the Hijack AJs is a pure open. For the Button A9s is 54% raise/fold facing the HJ Open.

 

[Frogzilla]

I loaded the Hand History for the session into the Analyzer but otherwise it's out of the box Snowie. This is the pre-flop chart for that BB spot. QTs is a 100% fold. We get to call when there is no rake so it is close. For the Hijack AJs is a pure open. For the Button A9s is 54% raise/fold facing the HJ Open.

View attachment 1137377

This is what Johnathan little has for same situation (BU v HJ RFI). It’s 3 betting AQo. Folding AQ on button to a HJ open as snowie recommends just seems insane.

I doubt HJ is playing whatever range snowie assigned them to be so tight from BU. And I really doubt BU is as tight as this range above which would be a factor in your BB defense. Snowie is right, fold QTs…for a situation you probably aren’t in

 

[ChipMonster]

People play any hand online, especially Ax so it always seems like they’re liable to hit random pairs and refuse to fold. I probably would’ve folded much earlier with the action they were showing unless I had enough time with them to tell how loose they were playing.

 

[glynn]

but interested in if anyone likes a squeeze to try and get heads up here?

I missed this thread the first time around. The primary objective of a squeeze is to take down the pot. We prefer that over playing a three-bet heads-up pot out of position.

When a squeeze works as planned, the original raiser in the HJ folds a wide late-position two-bet range that cannot stand a three-bet from the blinds, and the caller on the BTN folds a wide late-position two-bet calling range that was not good enough to three-bet the HJ's wide range, let alone call a three-bet.