Tourney Tournament Structure t100 (150BB) (2 Viewers)

[Mr Winberg]

The reason we are not designing this with BBA at the start in this case is because we are limited in T100 chips with OP's set.

Gotcha. Reading is hard.

In that case I think the best approach is this:

6. 600/1200
BREAK: Remove T100, End Rebuy Period, Start BBA
7. 1000/1500 (1500)

And while I do agree with this:

increasing the blinds plus adding a bba in L7 is an unneccessarily huge increase over L6

... I think that the increase of the BB is so small (25%) that I think it's ok. Repeating the level means you need to reduce the level time across the tournament.

The bottom line is you need to pick what you think is the lesser of the two evils:

1. Adding the ante while also increasing the blinds (albeit just 25%), or
2. Avoiding that issue by repeating the level, but then being forced to have shorter levels to meet your deadline

I would probably pick #1, because I prefer longer levels over shorter ones. But both are ok.

 

[BGinGA]

The increase in total blinds from L6 to L7 is 39% (not 25%) if excluding the bba, while also adding a BBA bumps that up to a whopping 122% increase -- compared to two separate increases of 39% and 60% if inserting a 1000/2000 level prior to adding the bba. Pretty significant difference, imo.

 

[Mr Winberg]

The increase in total blinds from L6 to L7 is 39% (not 25%) if excluding the bba, while also adding a BBA bumps that up to a whopping 122% increase -- compared to two separate increases of 39% and 60% if inserting a 1000/2000 level prior to adding the bba. Pretty significant difference, imo.

I was referring to the jump being on the smaller side, as in, it could have been worse. For example, if it is introduced when going from 1k/2k to 1.5k/3k, that would be a much worse time to add the ante. My point was mainly that if you repeat a level, then all levels must be shortened, so you must pick your poison.

Now a debate for another thread is what percentages to use. You're using all chips that go into the pot. I just used the BB. The reason for this is that the BB size dictates the action. When it's 1200 the initial raise it usuall to 2500-3000. When it's 1500 it's around 3k-4k. Maybe a bit more if people take the ante into consideration. But it doesn't increase 122%. Not that you said that, but that's why I only looked at the BB.

 

[BGinGA]

The 'blind increase" is the total amount of forced bets per level faced by players. You can't use just the BB to calculate this.

 

[Mr Winberg]

The 'blind increase" is the total amount of forced bets per level faced by players. You can't use just the BB to calculate this.

Well actually I can, because I literally defined the percentage I was using as the

increase of the BB

, so there's that.

There are a lot of percentages out there that serve different purposes. If pondering how the new level will affect the short stacks' "n" value, i.e. the number of rotations their stack can survive, then your percentage is a much better tool. And yes, they would be very much affected if increasing the BB and also adding an ante. If trying to measure how the overall play will be affected, like the "deepness" of play or average stack if you will, then the BB is the important factor.

But to sum it up, I never wrote that 25% is the "increase in total blinds", which might be the cause of our little misunderstanding here.

 

[BGinGA]

If trying to measure how the overall play will be affected, like the "deepness" of play or average stack if you will, then the BB is the important factor.

I disagree. The size of all of the forced bets in the pot is a more important factor than just the BB. This is also why included antes (BBA or otherwise) affects play.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I disagree. The size of all of the forced bets in the pot is a more important factor than just the BB. This is also why included antes (BBA or otherwise) affects play.

Yes of course antes affect play. I'm glad you have finally seen the light on that one.
(Just kidding)

I do not agree that increases in the SB are as important as increases of the BB. Bigger BBs mean bigger pf raises and bigger pots (both raised and unraised), and shorter average stacks (per definition, since stacks sizes are measured in the number of BBs). Bigger SBs typically just means adjusted steal/defend ranges among the GTO folk and the occasional loose limp from the SB. And a smaller "n".

Example of what I mean:

Do you honestly think that this increase:

Level X: 600/1200
Level X+1: 1200/1200
(33% increase by your way of measuring, 0% by my)

...has the same effekt as:
Level X: 600/1200
Level X+1: 800/1600
(33% increase by both your and my way of measuring).

Honest question. Does 1200/1200 play the same as 800/1600? I do not believe it does, because the average stack is smaller for the latter.

Now a debate for another thread is what percentages to use.

Maybe this thread is just fine

 

[TheRealStephen12]

Yes of course antes affect play. I'm glad you have finally seen the light on that one.
(Just kidding)

I do not agree that increases in the SB are as important as increases of the BB. Bigger BBs mean bigger pf raises and bigger pots (both raised and unraised), and shorter average stacks (per definition, since stacks sizes are measured in the number of BBs). Bigger SBs typically just means adjusted steal/defend ranges among the GTO folk and the occasional loose limp from the SB. And a smaller "n".

Example of what I mean:

Do you honestly think that this increase:

Level X: 600/1200
Level X+1: 1200/1200
(33% increase by your way of measuring, 0% by my)

...has the same effekt as:
Level X: 600/1200
Level X+1: 800/1600
(33% increase by both your and my way of measuring).

Honest question. Does 1200/1200 play the same as 800/1600? I do not believe it does, because the average stack is smaller for the latter.


Maybe this thread is just fine

Not an identical effect, but certainly a serious one. It means a higher VPIP from the small blind, and probable consideration of dead money. Raise sizes would probably be a larger percentage in terms of big blinds.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Not an identical effect, but certainly a serious one. It means a higher VPIP from the small blind, and probable consideration of dead money. Raise sizes would probably be a larger percentage in terms of big blinds.

I'm not saying that there is no effect with option 1 (I have already mentioned some of them), I'm saying that option 2 has a bigger effect.

 

[BGinGA]

Average stack size is measured in bb size primarily for convenience, but measured in total outlay for accuracy. Pick your poison.

 

[Baseten333]

I just don't ever stop thinking about structures haha. I've found that my players are actually ok with 5-6 hour tourney nights. I think that I was just worried about it because I've played with people who get annoyed at long tournaments. (I like playing poker... More time playing poker is always good in my book.) My current set actually has t25s, I just have kind of moved on from them because truthfully I hate the odd change making etc. I feel like I can convert this to being t100 if I want.

Current set is
173 x t25 (Only need 160)
200 x t100
100 x t500
250 x t1000
125 x t5000
25 x t25000

Starting stacks at 20K 8/8/4/7/2 w/ +2 t1000 on-time bonus of 2000 chips to make 8/8/4/9/2 stacks
(t100 conversion 10/4/9/2)

20 Min Levels
1. 75 / 150
2. 100 / 200
3. 150 / 300
BREAK: Remove t25s
4. 200 / 400
5. 300 / 600
6. 400 / 800
BREAK: END REBUYS
7. 600 / 1,200
8. 800 / 1,600
9. 1,000 / 2,000
BREAK: Remove t100s - BBA Starts
10. 1,000 / 2,000 (2,000)
11. 1,500 / 3,000 (3,000)
12. 2,000 / 4,000 (4,000)
BREAK: Remove t500s
13. 3,000 / 6,000 (6,000)
14. 4,000 / 8,000 (8,000)
15. 6,000 / 12,000 (12,000)
BREAK: Remove t1000s
16. 10,000 / 15,000 (15,000)
17. 10,000 / 20,000 (20,000)
18. 15,000 / 30,000 (30,000)

440K Starting chips (22K x 20 Peeps) with 50% (Extra breathing room, I'm sure the rebuy rate is probably closer to 35-40%) 200K = 640K
20 BB Rule is 32K by that math. Noting that most BBA Tournaments end 2-3 levels earlier I think I can assume it ends at level 16. Its pretty rare that I have a full 20 Bodies so idk just thought I'd post this and see what you guys think. This also accounts for BBA and having enough chips for it without that oddly big jump.

 

[Baseten333]

I could just do the 15 min levels and then it would be at that 4 hours Maybe Ill experiment with 18 min levels. (16 x 18 = 4.8hrs)

Can obviously convert levels 1-3 to
1. 100/100
2. 100/200
3. 100/300
or
100 / 200
100 / 200
100 / 300

 

[Mr Winberg]

I've found that my players are actually ok with 5-6 hour tourney nights.

This is great news! Your tourneys will be less turbo-ish!

These two don't fit well together:

I hate the odd change making

Starting stacks at 20K 8/8/

The above will lead to change making.

Noting that most BBA Tournaments end 2-3 levels earlier

In my experience of hosting maybe 20-30 BBA tournaments, it's about 1 level earlier. YMMV

Maybe Ill experiment with 18 min levels.

I haven't done the math, but yes, if you're happy with the structure then just increase the level time.

 

[Baseten333]

I see what you are getting at haha..

To clarify, yes, more change making with 8/8/4/7 as opposed to 12/12/5/6.

I just mean in general, to me, in units of 100 vs units of 25 the math and change making is quicker when it does happen. Not trying to say I'm avoiding having to make change. If that was the case I'd obviously buy more t25s and t100s. If it were to happen id just get the extra t100s and go 15/5/11/1 or 15/5/6/2. (Will probably happen very very soon.)