Tourney Tournament exp needed. 10k or 15k? (2 Viewers)

[stevea]

Starting blinds 25/50.....10k or 15k?? And add ons/rebuys? Opinions?? One table,....two sometimes.

 

[v1pe]

Many many threads in this subforum address the many many preferences of folks around here...in general it seems most like a T10K+ with 25/50 starting blinds. The rest depends on how many players, how long you want the game to go, etc.

 

[Nex]

Way too little info about intended properties of the tournament... but I'll leave that to the resident specialists.
You'll at the very least also have to think about how long the tournament is supposed to be running, because that has big influence in how you design your structure.
One thing I've learned here is that tournament structure design is a profession of its own, with tons of input variables.

Some experienced people here advise against 25/50 starting blinds because level two would be a 100% increase at 50/100, unless you go with wonky SB/BB relationship and do 50/75 for L2.

 

[stevea]

Ok so ideally I’d like about a 5-51/2 hr 10
Man tourny. I like the idea of add ons and rebuys to increase the pot but don’t have any experience with them. My set will include 25-100-500-1,000-5,000-10,000. I’ve seen blind structures online that will get you to 5 hrs but not sure with add ons and rebuys. Also using bounty’s do you give additional bounty’s to rebuys and add ons?

 

[BGinGA]

Some experienced people here advise against 25/50 starting blinds because level two would be a 100% increase at 50/100, unless you go with wonky SB/BB relationship a similar blind progression and do 50/75 25/75 for L2.

Fyp.

 

[BGinGA]

Ok so ideally I’d like about a 5-51/2 hr 10
Man tourny. I like the idea of add ons and rebuys to increase the pot but don’t have any experience with them. My set will include 25-100-500-1,000-5,000-10,000. I’ve seen blind structures online that will get you to 5 hrs but not sure with add ons and rebuys. Also using bounty’s do you give additional bounty’s to rebuys and add ons?

Running a 'standard' T10K blind structure starting with 25/50 opening blinds (200bb) using 40% average increases (33%-50% each level) and 20 minute blind levels will typically finish in your allotted time frame, even with re-buys.

Bounty chips can be handled either way -- either you give it up when felted (and buy a new one with the purchas of your re-buy stack), or you only give it up the bounty chip when completely eliminated from the event (so no new bounty chip when re-buying).

No bounty chips with add-ons..... and I'd advise against using them on the first try -- they will definitely increase the length of your event (more so than re-buys).

 

[stevea]

Ok thanks for the info! I’ll maybe wait to see how long it runs with just rebuys and add them later if I have the time.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Ok thanks for the info! I’ll maybe wait to see how long it runs with just rebuys and add them later if I have the time.

If not using add-ons I think it's a good idea to allow players to surrender their stack and rebuy at any time during the rebuy period. The reason is that if someone loses an all-in leaving them only a few chips just before the rebuy period ends, then their night is pretty much over. Had they had a little less and been eliminated they could have rebought. It's a bit weird to be "punished" for having more chips. Add-ons solve this, but with only rebuys I think it's fair (especially in a home game where bragging rights mean more than the money) to let the crippled player surrender their stack and rebuy.

Same scenario but ten minutes left before rebuys end, then that player is going to go all-in every hand hoping to be eliminated or miraculously win enough all-ins to get a playable stack. This kinda disrupts the play, so better if they can rebuy instead.

Regarding the question in the OP, 15k instead of 10k gives you a deeper tournament at the cost of extending the length with roughly a blind level, perhaps two (depends on the structure). It's a matter of taste. Personally, I like to mix it up and have different structures each time.

 

[Legend5555]

FWIW, I don't mind doubling in the first level as long as that double keeps the starting stack at 100bb or more. And I also prefer using 50/75 to 25/75 if you want an intermediate level as it promotes more action. In a 1 chip / 3 chip structure, the SB is getting such a bad deal.

 

[BGinGA]

Using 25/75 instead of 50/75 maintains the continuity of the 33%/50% blind increase progression, otherwise an inconsistent and out-of-range 25% increase is necessary (50/75 to 50/100).

 

[Legend5555]

Using 25/75 instead of 50/75 maintains the continuity of the 33%/50% blind increase progression, otherwise an inconsistent and out-of-range 25% increase is necessary (50/75 to 50/100).

I don't think most people care. They usually just see the size of the BB. I get from an M perspective what you are doing, but I just generally think 2/3 structures work better than 1/3. An odd level or 2 isn't going to break a tournament.

 

[BGinGA]

I think more people care about consistent increases than a 1/3 blind level. 1/3 is much more common than 2/3.

 

[Legend5555]

I think more people care about consistent increases than a 1/3 blind level. 1/3 is much more common than 2/3.

I'm just curious how often people actually know how much of a difference there is between 1/3 and 2/3? It's hard to design a structure without a +25% somewhere. It can be done. But with antes, the jump from 8/16 to 10/20 is always +25%. As long as you don't have more than a couple of +25%, I think it's a non-issue. Just my opinion.

Plus 2/3 is better for action. It gives the SB more incentive to play. I'm always for structures that drive more action.

 

[stevea]

So what structure do you guys use for a one table tourny that goes about 4-5 hrs? I know there’s free structures online for the exact specifications of my game but I look at them and it seems like they jump up quick. Most people don’t like tournys where they play good for a while and work their way up only to have it turn into a lottery toward the end (I feel that’s the biggest turn off of tournys). I get that you have to end the tournament at some point so you have to raise the blinds but just wondering if anyone has a blind structure that they like?

 

[BGinGA]

I'm just curious how often people actually know how much of a difference there is between 1/3 and 2/3? It's hard to design a structure without a +25% somewhere. It can be done. But with antes, the jump from 8/16 to 10/20 is always +25%. As long as you don't have more than a couple of +25%, I think it's a non-issue. Just my opinion.

Plus 2/3 is better for action. It gives the SB more incentive to play. I'm always for structures that drive more action.

Burdening the worst-position player with a twice-as-large forced bet is wrong imo. Plenty of ways to encourage action without needlessly picking on a particular player.

You can always increase from 8/16 to 11/22 to 15/30 and avoid any 25% jumps whatsoever, and it often works out better for the color-up break schedule. Same for 80/160, 800/1600, and 8k/16k.

 

[Legend5555]

Not a fan of using weird levels like 11/22 just to keep a "consistent" % increase. The whole idea of what size increases in tournaments levels is subjective anyway. Some people might like smaller increases. It just happens to be that many increases are in the 33-50% range. My structures generally have 2-3 +25% increases depending on whether I'm T25 or T100 based.

Why is it wrong to "burden" the SB player? It affects everyone the same if skill isn't accounted for. Besides, with antes the SB should be playing like 90% of hands in unraised or folded around pots anyway. It's only with no ante that there is a big difference. With no ante, you should be playing quite tight from the SB in a 1/3 structure, and I'm not a fan of that from both an action and fun perspective. (Also why I like 1/1 and 5/5 over .50/1 and 2/5 in cash games.)

It's just an opinion difference for sure. As all of these are generally minor differences that don't have a huge impact. Since I like to start people at 200bb at most, throwing a couple +25% gives the early and middle stages a bit more play.

 

[Poker Zombie]

So what structure do you guys use for a one table tourny that goes about 4-5 hrs? I know there’s free structures online for the exact specifications of my game but I look at them and it seems like they jump up quick. Most people don’t like tournys where they play good for a while and work their way up only to have it turn into a lottery toward the end (I feel that’s the biggest turn off of tournys). I get that you have to end the tournament at some point so you have to raise the blinds but just wondering if anyone has a blind structure that they like?

I have 5 blind structures I like. Each has it's own purpose.

• Rookie structure. T5 base, 500 BB to start. Big jumps in the first hour. After 1 hour, it looks like a typical T25 base tournament with 50/100 starting blinds, and 40% progression. This gives new players, that tend to play every hand about 1.5 - 2 hours of fun before real risk of being felted.
• Slow progression, fast levels. Each level goes up very little, but only 12 minute levels (roughly one orbit at an 8 player table).
• Big jumps, 20 minute levels. 500 BB to start, but steep jumps between levels (100% / 50% / 67%)
• Varied progression. Faster to start (33-50% progression), but then slows down (20% / 25%) when the expected "knockout levels" arrive (players still hanging around with ~starting stack would have 10-20 BB). It then returns to 33-50% progression. This allows players a little more time to pick their spots when in the jam of fold range.
• Casino Structure. Let's face it, a lot of 4-5 hour Vegas tournaments (<$100 tournaments) have terrible structures, but they are also extremely common. progression is not % based, but chip based, which leads to a repeating 100% / 50% / 33% / 25 % structure. It's easily predictable, but when going from 25% to 100% again, it's like being hit in the face with a dirty sock. But if you want your home game to run like a casino...

 

[BGinGA]

I think it's more a matter of making the math work for you, rather than against you. I just don't understand people that resist incorporating minor tweaks that result in improved blind structures, as the players benefit from it, and they aren't bothered by it. Laziness and/or stubborness must be the reasons, I guess.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I think it's more a matter of making the math work for you, rather than against you. I just don't understand people that resist incorporating minor tweaks that result in improved blind structures, as the players benefit from it, and they aren't bothered by it. Laziness and/or stubborness must be the reasons, I guess.

 

[Legend5555]

I think it's more a matter of making the math work for you, rather than against you. I just don't understand people that resist incorporating minor tweaks that result in improved blind structures, as the players benefit from it, and they aren't bothered by it. Laziness and/or stubborness must be the reasons, I guess.

So I'm lazy and stubborn for thinking it's okay to have a couple 25% increases? 25% increases are in theory more friendly to the player, no? You seen to be assuming there is a "best" way to structure a tournament. In reality we are in the same ballpark with just minor differences that affect the play in subtle ways. I think that if you don't start super deep then including some 25% makes a lot of sense.

There is no reason to call people who disagree with you lazy and stubborn. At no point did I ever say you were flat out wrong or anything. I get what you are doing with trying to help the structure stay very consistent, I just think that's a personal preference and not some superior way to run a tournament. I'm sure we would agree that some extreme examples like constantly doubling levels or super small starting stacks are generally kinda bad, but we are talking about minutia here. It's not like I'm not giving reasons for my preferences.

 

[Mr Winberg]

So what structure do you guys use for a one table tourny that goes about 4-5 hrs?

Here's a pretty standard one for a T10k with rebuys.

SB BB
25 50
Add a 25/75 level (sorry @Legend5555) if you want to avoid a 100% increase. This means all levels need to be shorter, though.
50 100
75 150
100 200
150 300
* Break, color up T25
200 400
300 600
400 800
600 1200
800 1600
* Break, color up T100
1000 2000 (sorry @BGinGA)
1500 3000
* Short break, color up T500
2000 4000
3000 6000
4000 8000
etc

Estimating a rebuy rate of 30% means 130k in play. Without an ante the tournament usually ends before or when there are 20 BBs left (~ level 3000/6000), with antes around 30 (~ level 2000/4000). Not counting breaks and excluding the 25/75 level, a level time of 20 minutes means without antes you are done after ~280 minutes of poker, and with antes ~260. If you add the 25/75 level you'll be risking missing your deadline unless you change to 18 minutes or so.

Most people don’t like tournys where they play good for a while and work their way up only to have it turn into a lottery toward the end

You could allocate more time to the endgame, but it's a tradeoff because the deep levels are fun. An example could be to remove the 25/50 level (i.e., start at 50/100) and add a 1200/2400. That's 20 minutes less with deep play and 20 minutes more during crunch time. It's still gonna be a low average stack towards end, but in theory it should be a bit higher.

 

[Legend5555]

@Mr Winberg No need to be sorry. It's not a big deal either way IMO. I just prefer one over the other. Not like I wouldn't play the 25/75 version.

 

[stevea]

Thanks!! That’s exactly what I was look for. I drew up a similar structure with a couple differences but it’s been a long time since I ran a tourny. I’ve been running cash for a while. But I wanted experienced info so I don’t waste time and or turn people off for the next one. Thanks a lot!!

 

[Mr Winberg]

@Mr Winberg No need to be sorry. It's not a big deal either way IMO. I just prefer one over the other. Not like I wouldn't play the 25/75 version.

To be fair, I did take your side here:

1000 2000 (sorry @BGinGA)

Thanks!! That’s exactly what I was look for.

Just so I don't take credit for other people's efforts, are you referring to the structure I posted, or the ever so important debate on 25/75 vs 50/75 and 25% increases?

 

[Legend5555]

@stevea you can't really go wrong no matter which side you choose on this "highly contested" issue . It's all just a balance of starting stack, time, and levels. As long as you don't double more than once (preferably early on) and keep things at a mostly even pace, everything will work out fine.

 

[swemon]

On the topic of funky progressions (I didn't want to start a new thread on a popular topic); does anyone have an opinion on the below transition? For the structure, it would mean simultaneously colouring up the T100 and T500 (after 800-1600). All jumps are still either 25%/33%/50% (average 40%) - just means having 2 x 50% jumps in a row. Yay or nay?

800-1600
1000-2000 (25%)
1000-3000 (33%)
2000-4000 (50%)
3000-6000 (50%)
etc..

 

[LinkyBabe]

Nevermind I'm an idiot

 

[swemon]

FYP

I always thought it was SB+BB, not just BB - thanks for correcting me

 

[Mr Winberg]

I always thought it was SB+BB, not just BB - thanks for correcting me

I've seen it both ways. From an 'm' perspective you count SB + BB, but since the BB has a much larger impact on play I personally tend to focus more on that.

I wouldn't be tilted by 1k/3k, but since there are usually very few T500 in play and there are usually very few players left when they are colored off, it only requires a short break to color them off after 1500/3000, so 1k/3k wouldn't save that much time.

 

[Legend5555]

I've seen it both ways. From an 'm' perspective you count SB + BB, but since the BB has a much larger impact on play I personally tend to focus more on that.

I wouldn't be tilted by 1k/3k, but since there are usually very few T500 in play and there are usually very few players left when they are colored off, it only requires a short break to color them off after 1500/3000, so 1k/3k wouldn't save that much time.

Agreed. There shouldn't many 500s in play if 1000s are also in play. As an example in my T100 based structure the breakdown is:

100 x10
500 x4
1000 x7
5000 x2